The Mule

[69rs]

The Mule is my desktop. Awesome.

[vanzuuk1]

How come phr never did a booklet with all the articles? I guess it would not have been cost effective.

I have camaroboys cd , which has all the info, but it would be cool to have it all in book form.

[ItsA68]

Charlie,

I'm considering heavily the Kinsler IR setup on my 68 Camaro buildup with a 400 small block. I'm hearing horror stories of setting these up, and getting the "tip in" right to avoid a stumble. Some supposed problem with all that air dumping into the motor at one time. I planned to have Kinsler set the whole thing up, and supply all the parts as well as the computer programming. How did the mule run prior to the turbo upgrade? Any problems whatsoever? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

~~fred francis

[camcojb]

The Mule is my desktop. Awesome.

This is mine!

[camcojb]

Charlie,

I'm considering heavily the Kinsler IR setup on my 68 Camaro buildup with a 400 small block. I'm hearing horror stories of setting these up, and getting the "tip in" right to avoid a stumble. Some supposed problem with all that air dumping into the motor at one time. I planned to have Kinsler set the whole thing up, and supply all the parts as well as the computer programming. How did the mule run prior to the turbo upgrade? Any problems whatsoever? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

~~fred francis

I'm not Charley but I've driven the Mule with that combo, and it was smooth as silk. He used a FAST efi setup with the Kinsler injection. I ran a similar Hilborn setup on a small block Cobra, again smooth as silk. Also used FAST. I've tuned mine and did not think it was difficult to get it correct.



Jody

[69rs]

This is mine!

Suweeet!

[ItsA68]

Jody,

That's the info I wanted. The naysayers telling me it's hard to deal with don't have direct experience. You however do....When I run the engine combo I'm building in Desktop Dyno, I get almost 50 ft/lbs additional torque through the whole power band compared to a 4bbl style throttle body, and intake. I've always read that these setups make a lot more torque. Would you say that's true? I was talking to this same person, and he said that if they really worked well, and were easy to deal with, then everyone would be running them. I replied that they're not as common because the carbs that are big enough to support a lot of power just aren't available (48 IDA) The smaller 40 IDF, and 45 IDF Dellorto's and Webers are diffcult to find, and not really common. (40's aren't so bad, but forget finding 45's or bigger) I also said that IR setups are a lot more expensive, and have their own problems with the MAP signal plumbing, and running vacuum accessories etc....The naysayer was a rep for an engine parts casting company, and I spoke to them at the Year One Experience this past weekend.

You have a larger 1280x1024 version of that bitmap?

~~fred

[camcojb]

Jody,

That's the info I wanted. The naysayers telling me it's hard to deal with don't have direct experience. You however do....When I run the engine combo I'm building in Desktop Dyno, I get almost 50 ft/lbs additional torque through the whole power band compared to a 4bbl style throttle body, and intake. I've always read that these setups make a lot more torque. Would you say that's true? I was talking to this same person, and he said that if they really worked well, and were easy to deal with, then everyone would be running them. I replied that they're not as common because the carbs that are big enough to support a lot of power just aren't available (48 IDA) The smaller 40 IDF, and 45 IDF Dellorto's and Webers are diffcult to find, and not really common. (40's aren't so bad, but forget finding 45's or bigger) I also said that IR setups are a lot more expensive, and have their own problems with the MAP signal plumbing, and running vacuum accessories etc....The naysayer was a rep for an engine parts casting company, and I spoke to them at the Year One Experience this past weekend.

You have a larger 1280x1024 version of that bitmap?

~~fred

They definitely make more torque, seen a few of these on dynos after being converted from 4 barrel throttle bodies. The Webers are cool but don't support enough HP for me. Fine on a mild to decent small block but will be a restriction beyond that. Many think because they flow 1500 cfm for example that it will be plenty for a good motor. Well, they're individual runner so divide that by 8 and compare to your ported heads that flow 280 cfm each port on the intake. No common plenum to "borrow" from like a single plane or 4 barrel setup has.

It is tougher getting vacuum lines as each port has to be tapped individually and then run to a common block. I had IAC, pcv/power brakes, and a separate map sensor signal. Two sets of lines were plumbed underneath like a hidden nitrous system. I do not have the larger pics anymore.

Jody

[David Pozzi]

I know a vintage racer with a bored out weber setup, I think it was bored to 51mm from 48's. He tried IR injection on the dyno and picked up 60 hp! I think it was on a 400SB Chev.

[camcojb]

I know a vintage racer with a bored out weber setup, I think it was bored to 51mm from 48's. He tried IR injection on the dyno and picked up 60 hp! I think it was on a 400SB Chev.

I believe it David. Many people look at total airflow but don't realize that on a Weber or IR setup you don't have a common plenum, so airflow is limited by the throttle body/butterfly of the injector/Weber carb.

Webers work awesome as you know, but realize they can be restriction on a high hp combo. My 2 3/16" Hilborn setup was still pulling vacuum at wot on my 406. Real eye-opener for me.

Jody

[ItsA68]

My experience with IR setups has been with my 69 VW Beetle. It has a 1776cc flat 4 with dual 40mm Dellorto's. I HAD 45mm Dells on it for a little while. (were too big). These carbs are so far ahead of what most US folks are used to, with replacable venturi's, and so may tuning options. They run REALLY well on the Beetle, and weren't that hard to set up with the right information. People get into trouble with these because most of the time they aren't set up right for your motor when you get them. I don't have any bogging problems off of idle, and I wonder why the tip in thing is made out to be such a problem. Kinsler told me it CAN be an issue if the runners are too large for the application, which makes sense. The more torque thing is what I'm really after. All the OEMs have gone to great lengths to make sudo-IR setups with long runners for more torue, but haven't gone with all the individual throttle blades, I'm guessing because of expense, and maintenance issues. Can you imagine a Toyota Camry with 6 throttle blades! On a related topic, do any of you guys have a preference toward any particular ECU in these apps, DFI, XFI, or BS3? They all seem to be able to do the same things, but are just different. With no experience with any of them, others opinions are valuable. Kinsler told me its mostly a matter of personal preference, or what you're used to. I know some have said that the DFI software isn't as intuitive as the FAST. Looking at them, they all seem rather technical, and complicated. What do you guys think?

~~fred

[camcojb]

Accel DFI is the toughest to tune in my opinion. Many things running in the background, many areas that overlap; make a change here and it changes something there.

FAST (older box) was always a favorite of mine as it was simple and could handle most any power level. The new XFI is a bit more to tune but is a much improved system as far as resolution and features.

BS3 is my current first choice as it has great resolution, many features including boost control and electronic trans controls, plus it also has a dual wideband O2 option to run a wideband for each bank.

When tuned correctly all of these units will run great. The tune is more critical than the brand. But I wouldn't recommend the Accel for beginners, I think the other three are easier to get where you want to be.

Jody

[Motor City Impala]

Hello everyone. New person to the site. Just wanted to let everyone know that Wheel to Wheel Powertrain worked on the twin turbo set up and the EFI set -up. I used to work for W2W in the concept-car division and saw the car being built when i would visit the race shop. Wheel to Wheel Powertrain is one of the sponsors of this site and their link is usually posted on the right hand side of the page here. Kurt Urban is the head of the engine shop. The MULE is one of the most often pictured cars on the site. I actually work 5 buildings away from the shop at the moment and heard 3 different engines running during my break times today 5-15-06. I hope this helps.

Todd K.

[TonyL]

welcome todd. Kieth urban and charley lillard are both members here also. Thanks for the info though. I look forward to hearing more about where you work.

/you have a cool job

[Motor City Impala]

Thanks for the warm welcome Tony. I no longer work for W2W, but I am working for a company doing service manual work for GM. Im currently working on 2007 stuff and cant say anymore than that. I had a great time working at the Wheel. Im sure that Keith can tell you when the next Open house will be. ive been to two so far and the Mule has been there both times. also you should ask him about the Aztek from HELL wearing 22's and a C5R engine. It really is a kick in the pants to watch some really cool stuff come together. I was there when they fired up the engine in it just sitting on the chassis plate.

On a side note Tony. I am considering building a B-Body 77-90 impala/Caprice. Can you tell me if anyone other than Chevy Highs Terry Stevens has done one to the caliber of Terry's? i have at least 5 versions floating in my head that I want to build and I have never noticed one done even close to Terrys car.

Thanks again for the welcome.

TODD K.

[Charley Lillard]

LOL.....Keith Urban ?

[aonghus]

Yeah Charlie,

you know, its a love thing



guy sure can build motors

LOL

[jeff5347]

https://www.pro-touring.com/mule/index.htm