Choosing a torque arm setup.

[Makeyourluck]

So, im in the beginning phases of building a 69 camaro that the end result will be a pro-daily. Something i can drive to work and still beat the brakes off at a track day on the weekend, while also looking ahead to be able to handle a turbo LS motor years down the road when i have a bigger budget. Its going to be powered by a freshly built sbc 406 roller motor that was just broken in on the dyno (525hp/502lbs). Recently picked up a full Speedtech front subframe with Viking coils and ATS spindles so the front end is headed in the right direction. Detroit speed mini tubs will be going on later this month.



After watching tons of youtube videos and searching comparisons im still having trouble pulling the trigger on a rear suspension system. I know i want a torque arm setup but since this is starting out as a budget build (baby on the way) money is def a factor. Car came with a factory 12 bolt with 3.55 gears and eaton posi that i figure i will re-use to save some money (would rather do a 9"). I got the car mid restoration, and the previous owner had cut off the spring perches. While that sucks, it also opens the field since what ever i choose will need brackets welded on anyway. SpeedTech, BMR and TCI seem to be pretty similar in performance and price. Is one easier to install and setup/maintain? Best "bang for the buck"? Any advice for a newbie would be greatly appreciated.

[Just 1 More]

following.. although i've pretty much have my mind set on the TCI for my '68 Camaro / 12 bolt.. i'm curious to see what advice the forum has for you

[79T/Aman]

there is far more than looking at a name first look at how well engineered and thought out it is, type of bushings, is there any bind? what is it's geometry? (roll center, instant center) is pinion angle adjustable, roll center? ease of installation, quality, can you still run a full exhaust?

[Just 1 More]

there is far more than looking at a name first look at how well engineered and thought out it is, type of bushings, is there any bind? what is it's geometry? (roll center, instant center) is pinion angle adjustable, roll center? ease of installation, quality, can you still run a full exhaust?

All good points, exactly what I'm here to find out about. Got any more insight on what company has all that good stuff and which do not?

[CSG]

After narrowing my choices per perceived quality I would start with roll center. Where will it be with your front suspension? Where will each rear setup put it? My assumption is that they will all be fairly close to each other on the rear. Shock tuning is the biggest thing in my opinion. The rear and front have to work together, so we have to worry about spring rates and valving. You can do the math for frequency as a starting point but you will always end up buying more springs to tune it in. Then the valving may not match. Or you could buy a matched system in the first place which for you would be the speedtech setup. Maybe those guys can chime in on their shock package and what R&D they have done to get it spot on. On older threads I have read complaints about the balance with their system. Was this customer induced issues or maybe things that have been worked out since? I don't know but would be interested in hearing.

[Makeyourluck]

After narrowing my choices per perceived quality I would start with roll center. Where will it be with your front suspension? Where will each rear setup put it? My assumption is that they will all be fairly close to each other on the rear. Shock tuning is the biggest thing in my opinion. The rear and front have to work together, so we have to worry about spring rates and valving. You can do the math for frequency as a starting point but you will always end up buying more springs to tune it in. Then the valving may not match. Or you could buy a matched system in the first place which for you would be the speedtech setup. Maybe those guys can chime in on their shock package and what R&D they have done to get it spot on. On older threads I have read complaints about the balance with their system. Was this customer induced issues or maybe things that have been worked out since? I don't know but would be interested in hearing.

Ive tried reading through some of the super detailed threads about suspension geometry and come out the other side with more of a headache than a working platform as im not an engineer. I learn better with my hands, unfortunately in this field the learning curve is EXPENSIVE ha.

[BMR Sales]

Always good to give us a call to discuss perimeters, budget, your wrenching experience etc

BMR Torque Arm F&B
- Completely Bolt-In System – No cutting or welding required
- Adjustability – Every Component is adjustable – Pinion Angle, Watts Link,
- Increased Spring Control – Eliminates Leaf Springs & Axle Wrap
- Three-Link Design
Articulation gives Bind-Free handling
Improves Straight Line Traction
Great for Street, Drag Strip, Road Course or A/X without compromising any Application.
- Watts Link – superior way to laterally locate rearend
- Ride Height – several adjustments with the Kit & Coilovers to adjust Stance
- Anti-Squat – lower control arms provide adjustment w/o changing Wheelbase
- Multiple Fitments – Kit is Offered for 1st & 2nd Generation F-Bodies & 68-74 X-Bodies. Available for 10 Bolt, 12 Bolt, and Custom 9” Rearends
- Colors – Available in Gloss Red, Black Hammertone Powdercoat or Bare Steel for your custom application
Here is very informative Tech Article written by our R&D Manager
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/cha...nsion-systems/
Our Torque Arm Suspension for a 67-69 Camaro was showcased on a Two Guys Garage Episode
http://www.bmrsuspension.com/index.c...d=0&videoid=95
The Guys at V-8 TV Shot a great install & results Video on a 71 Firebird
http://www.bmrsuspension.com/index.c...d=0&videoid=99

[Makeyourluck]

My buddy who owns Automotion classics in upstate NY met some representatives of BMR at SEMA this year and had nothing but good things to say about you guys and the build quality of your products.

[mrpotatoes]

Always good to give us a call to discuss perimeters, budget, your wrenching experience etc

BMR Torque Arm F&B
- Completely Bolt-In System – No cutting or welding required
- Adjustability – Every Component is adjustable – Pinion Angle, Watts Link,
- Increased Spring Control – Eliminates Leaf Springs & Axle Wrap
- Three-Link Design
Articulation gives Bind-Free handling
Improves Straight Line Traction
Great for Street, Drag Strip, Road Course or A/X without compromising any Application.
- Watts Link – superior way to laterally locate rearend
- Ride Height – several adjustments with the Kit & Coilovers to adjust Stance
- Anti-Squat – lower control arms provide adjustment w/o changing Wheelbase
- Multiple Fitments – Kit is Offered for 1st & 2nd Generation F-Bodies & 68-74 X-Bodies. Available for 10 Bolt, 12 Bolt, and Custom 9” Rearends
- Colors – Available in Gloss Red, Black Hammertone Powdercoat or Bare Steel for your custom application

Yours and the CA Chassisworks options are my favorites but after finding out some terrible news about the 9 bolt and 12 bolt GM axles now I wonder if I should even bother keeping them and was looking at Ford 9" replacement in the future when I add a torque arm. That being said I looked at your options and the pictures therein and saw that the Ford option "looks" less heavy duty than, say, the GM 12 bolt. Is this an old model or is there something more going on that I [clearly] don't understand.

[BMR Sales]

Yours and the CA Chassisworks options are my favorites but after finding out some terrible news about the 9 bolt and 12 bolt GM axles now I wonder if I should even bother keeping them and was looking at Ford 9" replacement in the future when I add a torque arm. That being said I looked at your options and the pictures therein and saw that the Ford option "looks" less heavy duty than, say, the GM 12 bolt. Is this an old model or is there something more going on that I [clearly] don't understand.

Depends on what you will be using the car for. For my car I had Moser re-do a 10 Bolt end to end - no issues

[bryant]

I would suggest going with the speed tech purely because its what you have up front.
Having the matching coilovers to the front is the primary reason I have for staying with the same brand. I have seen several speed tech equipped cars, and they are no joke. Also the owners have said their support is exceptional!
Next thing, I consider is roll center adjustment. This is done with the pan hard bar or watts link. I like pan hard bar because it can go lower than a watts link. I have used pan hard bars in several autocross car builds and have found it very effective in being able to quickly adjust it height to for different grip situations with great effectiveness. The watts linkage is cool but usually can not be adjusted to have as low of a roll center and is more complicated to adjust each time.
Then pinion angle, that should be able to be adjusted and set during installation.

[D-Man]

Don't worry about sticking to the same brand front and rear. Any engineer that's not in marketing mode is going to tell you that's a myth. You'll also notice that all of these companies with stock subframe upgrade kits and aftermarket subframes including rack and pinion designs don't have different rear suspensions systems to match. What is important is geometry, adjust-ability, pivot design, spring rate, shock design, NVH, and actually spending time to tune it.
For a pro daily I guessing that you want low noise/vibration and ride quality to take priority over all out performance. If so stay away from the metal on metal and rod end type links and front pivot/joints. If you do a lot of research like I have you find many negative comments on certain TA brands transmitting vibration into the cab due to the front pivot being right under the drivers seat. Fortunately all the kits out there have great pictures of their pivots so you can see exactly what you're getting. Some companies like Chris Alston have several pivot designs for difference applications (road or track). For ride quality look at how much unsprung weight (axle and everything attached to it) the TA design adds. The more unsprung weight the worse it's going to ride. All of the 10/12 bolt kits I've seen have massive plates and brackets that add way more weight than the 9 inch kits.

[CSG]

I'm going to add to that statement and say that a good engineer understands his clients constraints. In this case OP is not an expert on suspension & probably does not have a lot of interest in becoming one. I am also making the assumption that he would like to do the least amount of testing and modifying as possible. I mix & match suspension all the time but I have experience with it.

[Makeyourluck]

I'm going to add to that statement and say that a good engineer understands his clients constraints. In this case OP is not an expert on suspension & probably does not have a lot of interest in becoming one. I am also making the assumption that he would like to do the least amount of testing and modifying as possible. I mix & match suspension all the time but I have experience with it.

correct, the last time i did a piece by piece build it was on a '05 wrangler LJ maybe 8 years ago that i put well over $20k into in modifications (doing 95% of the work myself), and months of research. After buying the best products and farming out the few things i could not do myself like re-gearing and building axles I realized i over built this thing to the point it was no longer practical and since I had kept tweaking it and not looking at the big picture i had wasted tons of money in the process. Im familiar with basic suspension geometry and im guessing not many people on here know the sound of 2.5" double heim joints articulating at speed under load. like going straight through roundabouts...at 50mph. upstate NY is a giant rhythm section if you have an imagination. Unfortunately im short on time to spend researching every pivot point from every company and how their actions effect one another to be TRULY competitive on a circuit. I understand the dance between practical and race car, this needs to be TIGHT. Corner hard like my last car (tuned, 400awhp'10 S4) at the sacrifice of comfort. The hardest part about all of this is I cant spend the money like i used to. Turns out right after i got married she decided im now taking part in this new thing called a "budget". its weird and i hate it but i guess a necessary evil so i dont want to waste any money going the frankenstein route when this will be my introduction to actual track days. Dont want to become disenchanted right off the rip.

[Makeyourluck]

Im leaning towards TCI. Having viking coilovers in the front already do i need to stay with viking for the rears? Run ride tech in the rear and viking in the front like the kit upgrade comes with? or is it worth it to upgrade to ride tech for both front and rear?

[79T/Aman]

it's the valving of the shocks that count not the brand name.

[badazz81z28]

it's the valving of the shocks that count not the brand name.

True, but mixing part types/brands on the car would bug me! If it was my car I would make all 4 corners the same.