I Need Help From the Community

[badazz81z28]

PT Team,

I'm about burned out...For years my passion has been trying to build a car like so many I adore here on the website and the few races I have been to. I have poured lots of hard earned money that I don't have alot of into my 1970 camaro. Every step of the way there has been a speed bump of being overcharged for work or simply being charged alot of money for results that were not flattering.



I just had my Detroit Speed Roll bar installed by a individual reccomended on this site and again let down after spending good money to have it done right (Not the PT members fault). He didn't follow the 10.5" measurement to ensure it cleared the stock interior and the top follow the line of the B-pillar (I provided the instructions). I'm just sick right now of the whole car...the let downs and the dis-satisfaction. My only option right now is to cut the cage out and buy another one...to have it installed again.
I'm going to reach out to DSE, but they are not known to sell partial kits. Is there anyone that can help? I really need DSE to sell me just the bars and the hoop (no doublers, cross bar joints etc.) and help finding someone in Vegas who can do the job right and not rip me off. I just spent 7 months in Afghanistan and boy am I just drained and down right now. I hoping someone in this community can really extend a hand of help. I really need it.

Thanks, Rob

[andrewb70]

Hey Rob,

Really sorry to hear about this. Give DSE a call and see what they say. I am sure that if you explain the situation they may help you out.

Andrew

[George Az]

Three years ago when I joined here, I really have learned a lot. One of the things I learned is to be patient. The monetary loss sucks. Three years ago, partially because of being here, I learned I cannot pay for it and there wasn't much bolt in for my particular vehicle, a 79 Dodge truck. Its ok, my truck, my hotrod. I learned I didn't know enough at all and I certainly couldn't afford to make mistakes and pay someone to do the job.

Three years ago I started the local community college for welding. Three years driving 75 miles round trip to learn safety, metalurgy and stuff before I got to the shop floor. This has nothing to do with my job or income and I pay for it. Then stick welding which I most likely will never use on a car, but I have now used around the neighborhood to put a couple bucks back into my pocket. I got around to GTAW and GMAW. My welds look good too. You are lucky driving a Chevy as the resources at your finger tips are outstanding. I actually got an email from Detroit Speed answering a question and in part I think it was I finally had enough knowledge on properly asking the question. We all have set backs and I promise you, my last nickel went to rebuild my motor three years ago, when it dropped a valve in the driveway putting part of it through the header and munching a piston. It got made right, but I pulled my motor again and can now pull my motor in less than an hour.

If you aren't happy with the shop, see if they will make it right. Sometimes they do the right thing. Hang in there, this is a hobby, take a step back take a breath and drive on.

If I was paying for it, I would have liked to have seen it tacked in place and communicated it before they started welding. When my car is in a shop - even it is my Honda Civic, I stop by with a six pack just to say hi. Good coms goes a long way.

I feel your pain though, when my wife looks at me for another grand being spent on what essentially is an old truck. which reminds me, I got to go work on her greenhouse before winter, I won't be working on the truck today. And the suspension parts are going to have to wait.

[badazz81z28]

Yeah, I could have checked in. I did call and see how things were going. I figured a competent and reccomended installer knew what they were doing. Hard to believe he’s not even a good welder. He practically melted areas of my dublers and burned through the trunk pan.

[rustomatic]

Hi Rob,

First off, thank you for your service. My normal response would be that you should take up welding and every other part of automotive work on this car for the hobby to really serve you right, but I know that as a soldier, it is probably nearly impossible for you to find the time. With that said, the real problem is not really clear with the installation (short of missing what you thought was an ideal installation point).

Yes, the MIG welds may have been cleaner, but they don't look too bad from the pictures. As for placement, it looks like the installer chose the most logical place in the floor to land the main hoop (given landing points--he landed the tubes where they would have the most metal for support and resistance to pushing through); additionally, you do not want that thing closer to the seats, if that was your aim. Even if you're using fixed-back seats, your head and possible needs for adjustment will be happy for any extra space between seats and bar; the crossbar will be plenty close for belt wrapping and a seat back brace (if you plan to install one).

As for burning through sheetmetal, it is very easy to do, especially with "vintage" sheetmetal. A very good pro will still do it, even if he/she says it never happens. Welding is literally melting metal, or more specifically, controlling a molten pool of metal. This is why the angle grinder is the #2 tool in the welding process. I am by no means an expert, however, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Remember that it's a hotrod, and that perfection is out of the range of most of our budgets. Perfection is out of the range of any machine, really, and it's for sure out of the range of any person operating a machine . . .

Step away and aim for perspective from multiple angles. Compare to other cars. My Falcon is on its second cage . . .

Edit: It looks like the dude welded non-clean metal (too much burned crud, meaning paint/dirt). That's a huge wrong, but it's not necessarily going to kill the integrity of the welds.

[badazz81z28]

Hi Rob,

First off, thank you for your service. My normal response would be that you should take up welding and every other part of automotive work on this car for the hobby to really serve you right, but I know that as a soldier, it is probably nearly impossible for you to find the time. With that said, the real problem is not really clear with the installation (short of missing what you thought was an ideal installation point).

Yes, the MIG welds may have been cleaner, but they don't look too bad from the pictures. As for placement, it looks like the installer chose the most logical place in the floor to land the main hoop (given landing points--he landed the tubes where they would have the most metal for support and resistance to pushing through); additionally, you do not want that thing closer to the seats, if that was your aim. Even if you're using fixed-back seats, your head and possible needs for adjustment will be happy for any extra space between seats and bar; the crossbar will be plenty close for belt wrapping and a seat back brace (if you plan to install one).

As for burning through sheetmetal, it is very easy to do, especially with "vintage" sheetmetal. A very good pro will still do it, even if he/she says it never happens. Welding is literally melting metal, or more specifically, controlling a molten pool of metal. This is why the angle grinder is the #2 tool in the welding process. I am by no means an expert, however, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Remember that it's a hotrod, and that perfection is out of the range of most of our budgets. Perfection is out of the range of any machine, really, and it's for sure out of the range of any person operating a machine . . .

Step away and aim for perspective from multiple angles. Compare to other cars. My Falcon is on its second cage . . .

Edit: It looks like the dude welded non-clean metal (too much burned crud, meaning paint/dirt). That's a huge wrong, but it's not necessarily going to kill the integrity of the welds.

Yeah, from a functionality stand-point the roll bar will do it's job. The issue was if that was just what I was going for, I could have bought a $150 universal kit. I really wanted the DSE bar mainly for the show stand-point and application specific. The DSE bar allows the installation of the stock side panels and the top of the hoop follows the B-pillar for an expert looking custom fit. I don't want it closer to the seats, the lower hoop feet move forward a couple inches and the bar leans more back. Then it will be perfectly aligned.

That's what I was looking for spending $700 on Detroit Speeds stuff. I would really like to learn how to weld, but like you mentioned I just don't have the time and moving a lot keeps my tool inventory to a minimum. I have managed to learned and do nearly everything else on my car...I just don't trust myself for things like welding structural even if I did have a welder.

[badazz81z28]

Like this:

Can this be fixed easier than replacing it? I imagine the down bars would need to be re-adjusted if the hoop is cut away and re-adjusted.

[Build-It-Break-It]

It can all be cut out and fixed. I've done it before. You'll have to (or have someone) use a combination of Sawzall , cut off wheels etc to cut it back off as close to the welds as possible and redo it. It's hot rodding.

There's lots of hacks out there. I've seen a few "big name" shops do horrible work and welds. I'm glad they post on sites so people can avoid them that know better and can see the poor quality.

Id definitely contact him to redo it right but from the looks of the weld quality and unclean metal he just experimented installing a cage on your car.

I wouldn't get discouraged tho. Just take it for what it is and pay to do it right. If you were closer I'd help you myself.

One thing I would do is post up who dof the work in the feedback section to help other members avoid the same headache.

[badazz81z28]

It can all be cut out and fixed. I've done it before. You'll have to (or have someone) use a combination of Sawzall , cut off wheels etc to cut it back off as close to the welds as possible and redo it. It's hot rodding.

There's lots of hacks out there. I've seen a few "big name" shops do horrible work and welds. I'm glad they post on sites so people can avoid them that know better and can see the poor quality.

Id definitely contact him to redo it right but from the looks of the weld quality and unclean metal he just experimented installing a cage on your car.

I wouldn't get discouraged tho. Just take it for what it is and pay to do it right. If you were closer I'd help you myself.

One thing I would do is post up who dof the work in the feedback section to help other members avoid the same headache.

Def a hobby lol...I just don't know who to take it to and trust to make it right. The guy that did the work will not fix it for free...

[BMR Sales]

Def a hobby lol...I just don't know who to take it to and trust to make it right. The guy that did the work will not fix it for free...

that would be a issue to me - where is his accountability? it's a shame but it can be fixed

[67King]

Let me give a different perspective. A "kit" or otherwise "produced" cage (or just a bar?) will never fit as well as a custom job. I have had a couple of cages put in race cars. They are a little over $2000 if I do all the prep work, and all the clean up and painting. Closer to $4000 if I drop off and pick up the car. But those fit a LOT tighter than the ones that can be ordered and installed. My motivation was safety (specifically egress in case of a fire), rather than aesthetics. But if you really want the thing to be really tight to the body lines, I would suggest that whatever you do, don't order a prefab bar, and have it installed. Have one built for that car (production variation and 50 years of who knows what history will mean that one size won't fit all as much as we'd like)

[badazz81z28]

Let me give a different perspective. A "kit" or otherwise "produced" cage (or just a bar?) will never fit as well as a custom job. I have had a couple of cages put in race cars. They are a little over $2000 if I do all the prep work, and all the clean up and painting. Closer to $4000 if I drop off and pick up the car. But those fit a LOT tighter than the ones that can be ordered and installed. My motivation was safety (specifically egress in case of a fire), rather than aesthetics. But if you really want the thing to be really tight to the body lines, I would suggest that whatever you do, don't order a prefab bar, and have it installed. Have one built for that car (production variation and 50 years of who knows what history will mean that one size won't fit all as much as we'd like)

Totally understand your perspective. Its very likely the case with a lot of "kits", however not with Detroit Speed. Even though mine is installed wrong, I can Detroit Speed did a lot of home work on this one. Especially by looking at cars that have one installed.

[garickman]

I would spend a few extra hours and a little bit more money and take it to Speedtech. I guarantee you it will be done right.

[badazz81z28]

eLooks like Detroit Speed is able to sell me the parts I need...However the shipping cost is 2X the cost of the parts. More than if I just bought a new entire kit from Summit Racing.

[badazz81z28]

eLooks like Detroit Speed is able to sell me the parts I need...However the shipping cost is 2X the cost of the parts. More than if I just bought a new entire kit from Summit Racing.

So what do you all think? An entire kit from Summit for $635 or a hoop with 2 bars for $495 directly from DSE? Is it worth $140 to just get the whole kit?

[andrewb70]

I would just get a whole new kit and start over.

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

I would just get a whole new kit and start over.

Andrew

I ended up buying the kit. Summit50 got me $50 off and their credit card will give me promotional $50 off of $500 spent. So it cost me about $630 when all said done taxes and shipping. Is it even remotely possibly to remove the doublers? I was originally thinking they should stay. It would be a lot of work to try and remove them. Thoughts?

[andrewb70]

I don't see anything wrong with them. Just cut the tubes close to the plates and grind smooth.

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

Thanks Andrew, its now been a couple days and I still feel distraught. I'm feeling a little better hearing yalls opinions on the matter. Thanks,

[andrewb70]

Thanks Andrew, its now been a couple days and I still feel distraught. I'm feeling a little better hearing yalls opinions on the matter. Thanks,

Don't forget, working on cars is supposed to be fun. If you're not having fun, then leave it be for a while. This is a hobby and should not be a source of frustration. I am glad you are feeling better about it!!!

Andrew