high end build=greedy arogant body men

[gazda520]

Having several builds under my belt, I have come to realize that the body and paint portion of these projects are always bring the fun to a halt. More importantly the higher end the build the higher degree of greed, thievery, and of coarse the curse of the pre-moddona attitude of these paint guys. It disgusts me when these people take advantage of you just because they know they now have your car and that you have so much money into the build that you are ready to pay anything just to get it done and back home. The worst part is the attitude and arrogance that they have about what it is that they do. There is so much talent out there no one should have to deal with a *****. The sad thing is that when people like that take advantage it ruins the hobby for all of us. My suggestion is either learn how to do body and paint or find a shop who is willing to give a firm price, not that hourly bull****, and stick with it. Best case is if the shop agrees to do the car with no money up front, but this is tough. In my opinion a decent pro-touring build is at a minimum 100k, maybe even 200k. If that is the case and the guy is not willing to do the paint with no money upfront , you should walk away. After all he has a 200k piece of collateral. On this build I was told 3 months and 20k. Turned into 12 months of aggravation and nearly 3 times that without any paint. Finally had enough and pulled it. Took it to another a-hole and had a similar experience. Finally found an amazing shop that gave me a firm price, no money asked, and the car was done in three weeks. Lesson learned!!

[bs46488]

I always hate reading the stories about when people get taught a lesson when they send their car to get painted.

[BMR Sales]

being stuck in Paint Prison is one of the worst things for a car guy

[killer69]

Why should a shop have to do a 3 month job with no money up front? i know i don't work for 3 months with out a pay check.
Glad to see you were not complaining about the 20k. that seems low for a 200k build 10% of the total for what 95% of the people see.
the paint jail is a sad truth for sure. i still ask people why they would take a custom job to a collision shop? you know tey are going push it ina corner and do insurance claims where they can make time the $$
there are alot of good s on here that can do the work but probably at higher cost. it is that old saying "Price Quality or Service, Pick 2"

[beater65]

I have seen both sides of these situations, I still feel like the shops do take advantage and customers get bent over more often than customers getting good end of the deal for sure.

But just because they have 100k in collateral doesn't mean they don't need to purchase materials for your build. I would think at a minimum you should be paying material costs up front. Rest on back end after its finished and your happy/satisfied with work. also never front total of the bid up front, that's always just asking to get bent over, if the shop has all your money, what incentive do they have to get it done... NONE/


And bidding a job on a vehicle that isn't bare metal and taken apart is almost impossible to be super accurate. Seen many of my friends in the industry take a beating for having to repair old shoddy work under paint, or rust repair that was unknown etc. and sticking to their original quotes even after spending countless hours basically fixing stuff for free.

I'd say doing your homework and talking to prior clients of shops you are planning to use is best bet. Then OVER communication of personal expectations for end result.


Happy hunting.

[TheJDMan]

Interesting topic. This is the very reason I am contemplating enrolling in a paint and body curriculum at the local community college just so I don't have to deal with paint jail. I realize there are two sides to every story, but this same story seems to recur far too often.

[HotRod47]

I am sorry you got burned, but your expectations and wants are ridiculous. Yes some shops are a******* for sure, but many are very good. As posted above, do you really expect a shop to not want ANY money up front, or during the build at all? The shop has expenses to pay out. How is he to do that without collecting money from you? Labor, materials etc etc all cost money. The better shops are billing as the build goes on. I don't know what you do for a living, but would you work for free for 90 days, or longer with no money coming in?

Bring a car to a collision shop and you will wait in Paint Purgatory for a long time for sure. They charge you an hour for an hours labor. Insurance work gets them at least 2:1. Quick money that pays the bills.

And any shop that is willing to give a rock bottom price up front is a shop that in the end will cut corners once they realize they are starting to work for free. Working on these cars takes time, and in most cases you just can't know up front how long some of these things will take. To me the car owner and shop owner have to have a good working relationship where communication is open and flowing. Pics of progress, reports on status etc etc. If its not, you will get butt hurt and feel as though you are being taken advantage of.

[phaf]

I hate being in paint jail. Like TheJDMan, I plan on learning the to do all the bodywork myself. Sanding and laying down a nice finish is not a challenge for me as I already have those skills. Welding is my challenge. Ultimately, my expectation is that it won't be a show car but should still be decent looking.

[sheck44]

Glen is spot on ... same story up here in Canada, I have a LOT of buddies that are currently in paint jail (some over 2 years now) and I as most you know just did a complete show car restoration over a 17 month (1000 hours ++) time period on my 69'. I paid by the hour and I went to the shop over an hour away every week, and at the end of the month I got a FULL breakdown of every hour. It was not cheap, but good quality restorations are typically far from cheap. There is no way you are building a $200K car and getting a $20k paint job, it just doesnt make sense.

It's virtually impossible for a shop to look at an old car and give a solid fixed price. Every shop that I know that did this got majorly burned because of underlying issues with the car, some even closed their doors and one even told the guy to come and get his car and take it back.

There are always 2 sides of the story, so like Glen said you need to find someone you can trust, set expectations right up front, you need to oversee the work, get pictures, get updates etc. and there should be no surprises

Just my 2 cents
Steve

[TonyV]

agree with most that's been posted but I found an alternative to paint jail...found a guy locally who use to own a high-end body shop but sold everything and now works out of your garage at a fixed hourly rate. I work along side him, like an OJT program. so far I've replaced all new metal except for the roof and trunk lid. This way I get to monitor how metal is worked or if filler is an option, so far we haven't had to use much at all. When I get to the point of final fit and weld I call him up, schedule some time and he comes over fixes what I may have screwed up and guides me through how to fix. I'm in primer and have run to events to shake out any issues, the plan is to tear it back down and paint it. He's suggesting we paint it in the garage and is confident in the quality. Still thinking about that, but its in my garage and not some body shop jail. hourly rate isn't cheap but in the long run i'm learning and its a fixed cost. Keep looking there's options out there but its a buyer beware....

[Jetfixr320]

agree with most that's been posted but I found an alternative to paint jail...found a guy locally who use to own a high-end body shop but sold everything and now works out of your garage at a fixed hourly rate. I work along side him, like an OJT program. so far I've replaced all new metal except for the roof and trunk lid. This way I get to monitor how metal is worked or if filler is an option, so far we haven't had to use much at all. When I get to the point of final fit and weld I call him up, schedule some time and he comes over fixes what I may have screwed up and guides me through how to fix. I'm in primer and have run to events to shake out any issues, the plan is to tear it back down and paint it. He's suggesting we paint it in the garage and is confident in the quality. Still thinking about that, but its in my garage and not some body shop jail. hourly rate isn't cheap but in the long run i'm learning and its a fixed cost. Keep looking there's options out there but its a buyer beware....

This is Awesome!! You are a lucky guy to find a body/paint guy that will share his knowledge. I also got lucky a few years ago, and had a few local guys and one via the web that helped me through learning how to do bodywork and paint, then wet sanding and buffing. I've painted 2 cars in my garage and 1 in another guys garage. All 3 cars turned out great.

I vote, paint your's in your garage. Trust your Mentor, he won't steer your wrong.

[minendrews68]

Glen is spot on ... same story up here in Canada, I have a LOT of buddies that are currently in paint jail (some over 2 years now) and I as most you know just did a complete show car restoration over a 17 month (1000 hours ++) time period on my 69'. I paid by the hour and I went to the shop over an hour away every week, and at the end of the month I got a FULL breakdown of every hour. It was not cheap, but good quality restorations are typically far from cheap. There is no way you are building a $200K car and getting a $20k paint job, it just doesnt make sense.

It's virtually impossible for a shop to look at an old car and give a solid fixed price. Every shop that I know that did this got majorly burned because of underlying issues with the car, some even closed their doors and one even told the guy to come and get his car and take it back.

There are always 2 sides of the story, so like Glen said you need to find someone you can trust, set expectations right up front, you need to oversee the work, get pictures, get updates etc. and there should be no surprises

Just my 2 cents
Steve

I gotta' agree. I think it's all in doing your homework and staying visible. dropping in and making your appearance is worth a lot.

[Nicks67GTO]

In my opinion a decent pro-touring build is at a minimum 100k, maybe even 200k.

Maybe for a pristine show piece but you can garage build a pretty sweet car for a lot less than 100k

This kind of talk about $20-60k paint jobs is also why my GTO will always have a 20'er paintjob, a slather of clearcoat and 0 fear of a parking lot

[pittpens24]

I cannot complain at all with my experience thus far. I did all the work on my car myself right up until it was at the point of spreading body filler. My shop gave me an estimate and I am on a pay as I go policy. My car just got sprayed this week and it had been a smooth and easy ride. The owner of the shop as well as the guys working on my car are all great people. As for the estimate and where I am at, yes I will be over, BUT it is all my own fault as I have added stuff here and there and made changes along the way. I honestly believe he would have come in right on budget if I stayed true to what we originally spoke about. There is hope people.

[68Cuda440]

I checked out several shops before I settled on Rodney's. A few shops I visited had cars that had been there for more than a year... I turned and walked away. One shop made it clear to me that my input was not welcome on how the work was to be done. They made it clear that they were the experts and I would not be involved in many of the decisions. They also insisted that I had to schedule when I would visit... not interested in that either. Rodney was much more open. On Saturday mornings he is there and some of the customers and some of his friends just come by and hang out. There is a group of guys that own and rent storage / shops next door and there is often something going on. I also went and talked to a few previous customers to make sure I understood what I should expect regarding quality and speed.

When my car was there I went by the shop at least a few times a week. Rodney was up front about pricing and billing. He would not give me a direct quote, part of that was due to the customization, part was due to the unknowns before stripping the paint off. I think he had his share of bad experiences on his side also. While I was there I saw a few customers cars that stopped work or delayed because of money flow issues. On mine there was no rust repair on the car and the total labor was 826 hours. I had the money saved up and in hand before the project started. At several points in the project he would have me come by to make decisions about some detail or another.

Each day the car was worked Rodney added the date and hours on the inside cover of the car's folder. Any time a material was purchased he added the receipt to the folder. Any time I visited I could open the folder and see where we stood. He asked for a very small amount up front when he started the work, then would only let me pay him for labor periodically after I had built up a bit of a balance. Each time I visited I would take pictures. Rodney and one of the fabrication guys would also send me pictures if I was not there for a milestone. I have over 1,400 pictures taken of the process...

My car was taken to Rodney's by flatbed on 9/17/2013. I had done a majority of the disassembly, it only took 2 hours to complete and get the car on rotisserie and ready to go to media blast. Work started on 10/17. There were a few lapses and delays but nothing unreasonable. My car came home as a painted rolling shell on 6/14/2014.

I have been unable to get pictures to upload to this site in some time. No idea why it does not work, I just get " IOError; Error #2038" Here is a pictorial of the work that was done on the car: https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar...dy-2014.10252/

[68Cuda440]

I am in Plano, TX and my car was done at Rod's Car Craft in Wylie, TX.
Randy's '67 Camaro had significant rust repair and fabrication before being painted there as well:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...ght=icemanrd19

Those of you who have had good experiences with a shop should tell us where so others in the area can know.

[Razzor67]

As an owner of a bodyshop I have seen both sides of this argument. The shop has fixed costs.Labor being the big one.Paint and materials are "NOT" a major part of the cost.
One of the biggest problems with giving a firm estimate is knowing what your working with. You want a firm estimate on a complete paint job. You want it as quick as possible. You want it perfect and pretty for that price. Here is what I see as a major part of the problem. Some shops are not able to provide this type of work. They need the steady income of insurance work to stay in business. They take on this type of job and it eats their lunch. So your car gets shuffled to the side so they can make payroll doing insurance work. We do mostly restoration work. The "surprises" are always interesting. I never realized you could use an old license plate to repair a rusty body panel. Anyway my suggestions. Get the body media blasted before an estimate. Look for a shop that does restoration work and can provide the type of service you are looking for. DO a background check on the shop, get names of former customers and call them. I don't know a car guy that won't take a moment to talk about it. As far as holding out payment until the job is finished. GOOD LUCK. It's pay as you go in my shop. You get an update anytime you come in. We collect a payment up from and work until that money is exhausted. Then we stop. You decide what's going to happen next and how much deeper to go. In any case this works well. We work till the money is gone and wait on the customer to make the next payment. That is usually what holds up a job.
We are always waiting for the next payment. I have a Camaro I'm working on now. The customer did this
Plan then stopped paying on it. It was in my storage for "8" years I own it now and am doing the Pro-Touring job on it. I see this problem fairly often that's why this program was started. I don't want all there cars . Well not all anyway. This is getting long winded so I'll stop here. But this is my two cents worth.
Ray

[andrewb70]

....Some shops are not able to provide this type of work. They need the steady income of insurance work to stay in business. They take on this type of job and it eats their lunch......
Ray

^^^^This....The life blood of any business, especially a small business, is cash flow!!! If you don't have adequate cash flow, your expenses do not get covered. This is why so many new companies go under and why many existing businesses struggle.

Personally, I am done with "pretty" cars. My next build will start with a decent looking, original paint car, and it will stay that way. I have really enjoyed driving the Cougar on almost a daily basis and could not care less about parking lots. The funny thing is, I get all kinds of compliments on the patina...

Andrew

[Nicks67GTO]

^^^^This....The life blood of any business, especially a small business, is cash flow!!! If you don't have adequate cash flow, your expenses do not get covered. This is why so many new companies go under and why many existing businesses struggle.

Personally, I am done with "pretty" cars. My next build will start with a decent looking, original paint car, and it will stay that way. I have really enjoyed driving the Cougar on almost a daily basis and could not care less about parking lots. The funny thing is, I get all kinds of compliments on the patina...

Andrew

Exactly. When I build my 70 Chevelle I'm either leaving the faded 1990 paint and original 1970 vinyl top or scuffing it and shooting it with something really cheap. When I go to events with the GTO I don't sweat anyone looking too close. I don't care about rock chips. Let the kids climb on it, leave smudgy finger prints on it. Let the mother of two walk right next to it with her stroller. I seriously dont care at all. I drive it into any parking lot and I don't really sweat it. It's a great thing for me.

[pittpens24]

The shop I am using is Valhalla Kustom Restoration and Fabrication in NNJ(Blairstown) and they are top notch in every sense. AJ is the owner and a no bs tell it like it is kind of guy.