Pro-Touring defined?

[Damn True]

Well, we do try and test cars whenever we can. This can really only be done on cars that are done locally (that we shoot at California Speedway) since we have to set up timing equipment and such. On "location" shoots doing testing is very hard because we do not have the equipment and it is often hard to find a place to do it that doesn't cost a small fortune. We have test data on a 2000 Z28 Camaro and it is interesting to see how a certain car stacks up against it. We also now have test data on a new '05 Mustang so that when I start my Stang project I will have some sort of benchmark for what I want to be better than.

Oh, and a lot of guys don't want to beat on thier cars. Remember guys that we are in the minority as far as the rest of the car hobby. Most guys just wanna polish and cruise. Just something to keep in mind.

Here's an idea:

When you set up a date for a bunch of photo shoots in say Texas, or PA.........Have the owners meet you at an SCCA SOLOII auto-x. Granted, an ideal setup for auto-x is a very unique thing that most folks don't run. However, auto-x is a very benign driving environment and people can push their cars as much or as little as they like. There will more often than not be some car at an event that will make for an interesting comparison against your feature car.

Besides, I'd rather see a photo of Bill's GTO at full lock sliding around between two rows of cones than another formulaic "posed" beauty shot. And, as you guys pointed out in your photo contest issue, vast expanses of good pavement make for nice photo backdrops. A stadium parking lot certainly qualifies.

Pretty easy to find these events. Go to http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo.asp?Id...8570&x=050|010&~= and navigate yourself to the appropriate region to find their event schedule, then plan around that.

....another bonus...I think this would be a great way to encourage more people to get their cars out and drive them and it really is a very easy and relatively risk free way to enjoy your car's performance.

Heck, I think an article dedicated to SOLOII itself would be a nice feature in the mag.

[parsonsj]

What we want to prevent is someone running 20's and not being educated about what is involved. I feel our number one goal is to increase awareness of what it takes to perform well and let the individual person decided how far they want to take that knowledge.

Well put. The idea is not to exclude or include. Let's build a community and provide good information about current theory of optimal setups and why they work. Folks that want to do different things can and will do that. And I'm interested in all of it.

jp

[Damn True]

Well put. The idea is not to exclude or include. Let's build a community and provide good information about current theory of optimal setups and why they work. Folks that want to do different things can and will do that. And I'm interested in all of it.

jp

Can I get a harrumph?!?!

[Jim Nilsen]

I remember the last time we all went through this. I had said that if you are here at P/T you are P/T and your car is P/T. If you can handle the discussions and feel that you fit in and you can handle what people say about your car and not leave then you are P/T. I like the idea of calling it a community and not a style. When I first came to P/T.com I didn't know where my car fit in. I didn't know where I fit in. Most everyone thought I was crazy and some thought I was stupid for cutting up a 67 Camaro and doing what I wanted to do to it. There were no aftermarket parts available and noone knew other than a few rodders and racers on how to do what I planned on doing. The streetrod people understood more about what I was doing than anyone else and they didn't put me down for it either. The racers just thought that I was putting a lot of money into a car that would never be competitive on the track with them.

The acceptance I got when I started here and I was here when it all began was the same acceptance everyone usually got here for a long time. with 3k + we now have some that want to be able to identify their car with themselves and because most still don't understand what it is we are doing they need a definition just like people need a religious denomination.We all believe in cars,but what kind of belief? Hence the need for definition. So to put it plainly it is better to be a community when ideals are attacked so you have saftey and belief in numbers of believers. This is what makes P/T real to those who have to identify with something to feel a part of the world they live in.

I will continue to build my car the way I visualize it and put things on and leave things off that just don't go with what I see my car as in the end. I have had a few look at it over the years and always say it is different. JeffS says it is very Unique. Since it was started before anything was defined or parts were available it is still one of a kind no matter how hard I would try to make it the same as other cars here.

The great thing about it all is that back in 93 if I would have finished it and sold it, I would have gotten 15k for the 20k I would have had in it. Now I will have 25k or so in it along with years of work and engineering and it will be worth 60k+. I never would have gotten others to believe it but I was always saying that one day all of the 60"s cars would be worth a lot because people would wake up to the fact that new cars cost so much and the people that buy them at 35k to 65k would soon pay more to have something classic and completely different from stock just to be able to have bragging rights over the other stock origninal cars that their friends have. After all if your P/T car can kick the but on your friends original Yenko in every way but being original these days you have a desirable car and the Mule is proof of it along with it's value.

Long live the P/T community and may we all be able to live with the vision of being open minded and helpful to all that feel like they want to be part of the spirit in which this site started with.

Jim Nilsen

[sinned]

since very few people can or even want to run thier car on a track..

I understand the can part, no track=no fun but what kind of nut case wouldn't want to have the freedom to drive as hard as they wanted without fear of Johnny Law?

[Steve1968LS2]

I understand the can part, no track=no fun but what kind of nut case wouldn't want to have the freedom to drive as hard as they wanted without fear of Johnny Law?

Believe it or not many guys have a fear of the track (fear of crashing thier hard work) and many have a misconception of what goes on at an open track day.. they think it is fender to fender stuff..

Once you go to open track day, you are addicted..

[Damn True]

Believe it or not many guys have a fear of the track (fear of crashing thier hard work) and many have a misconception of what goes on at an open track day.. they think it is fender to fender stuff..

Once you go to open track day, you are addicted..

....perhaps a subject for an article? Co-written with someone with a capable car, but a complete newb to track driving.

Go through the prep, the coaching experience, the guys first impressions, and his progression throughout the day.

[tracar91]

Once you go to open track day, you are addicted..

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding ! We have a winner. I think while Pro-tour can be considered a "look", I have done no mods to my car (except paint) that didn't make it work better ON the track. And While it's not a "old" car (1991 Z28) I still consider it pro-touring/ G-machine because of it's intended use. I had a 1989 Iroc convertible until I took it out for my first track day. I quickly realized that I needed a much safer car if I was going to push myself and my car out on the track.

That being said, I don't understand not keeping a car clean and presentable just because you thrash it on the track. At most events I see one or two cars which are fast as crap but obviously haven't been washed in a season or two. I also see cars which are pristine show cars but the guys are barely pushing them for fear of damage. I prefer the middle ground. My dad always said "Don't race it if you can't replace it"

[vanzuuk1]

Steve The fear of wrecking your car isnt completely unreasonable , east coast tracks are unforgiving. Loudon, lime rock and the glen are not much for runoff , if you go off there are guardrails, walls and trees to greet you. I still intend to track day my car but if I bend it the car will sit for a long time before I can afford to repair it.

I liked the track they ran on the speed channel small block shootout, real technical with a lot of combination curves and room to recover.

I have a beef with the track at loudon, I left some of my dna (skin and blood) on the pavement in turn six many years ago. I would still go back, though.

[KrisHorton]

Once you go to open track day, you are addicted..

Agreed. When I went to the clinic at Buttonwillow I was really nervous but with the nice runoff and the way the driving/passing was set up, it put my mind at ease. I didn't drive my car very hard because it was my first time out, but I can't wait to go again and try it a bit faster!

I can respect anyone who builds a great-handling car. I'm not big on saying whether or not a car is PT or not. Pro-Touring is just another style to build your car in if you ask me. Not too unlike Pro-Street.

I think people might be taking it a little too far by so specifically defining a trend that it starts to alienate cars for one or two things. It's just a little silly.

That's just my two cents though.

[bnickel]

the way i see it pro-touring is a progression that started back in the 60's with the trans-am cars and the factory cars that were created to homologate the race cars, in effect (using Andrews phrase here) emulating the races cars. from there it progressed to street machines and later the canyon carvers (road racers) of the late 70's/early 80's and then to pro touring in the early 90's. the one thing all of these cars had in common was that they were muscle cars from the 60's that were all improved on from the factory to make them better handling machines and to some degree better and more enjoyable drivers, the main thing here is the better driver part.

PT is just the next iteration of the previous version of a muscle car that can do everything well. personally i have been into pro touring since it was still in the canyon carver stage of life. to me the pro touring style of car building is the best so far and also the most technologically advanced to date. which is great, we are building more or less modern cars in 60's muscle car clothing and they will not only out perform their former selves but most modern equivalents as well, that too me is what pro-touring is all about, and along with that there is the personalization that comes along with it. it doesn't really matter if the car has 15" wheels or 20" wheels as long as it can out perform it's former self and at least hang with it's modern counterpart.

PT is also the broadest version of the all purpose muscle car yet and i don't think there is any way to truly define it by saying this is or isn't PT, however there has to a limit somewhere, such as big ass blowers sticking out of the hood or little tiny cookie cutter wheels or anything with more than 1" of wheel diamter difference from front to rear. for instance a car with 18's front 22's out back, that to me is more of a street rod than a PT car, but there are always exceptions to every rule, it is also possible that a car could fit into multiple categories like street rod and PT or pro street and PT, for example Steve's Bad Penny is pretty much pro street and PT right now, but Steve is obviously going to something about that. another for instance is Bill's GTO, that car too me is all PT with some sreet rod influence but it's still all PT. my car is probably more in the old canyon carver style but with a full interior which many of those cars didn't have. is my car PT? hard to say since it has 15" wheels and (currently) stock brakes, but it does have a built engine and many suspension and steering mods, more modern and comfortable seats and will have even better suspension and steering mods as well as braking mods eventually and maybe even bigger wheels but i'm still kind of partial to my current wheels.

[CarlC]

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding ! We have a winner.

Yeah, I was swimming in ignorant bliss until my first time at the track. Now I'm hooked, have spent way too much money, and can't wait to do it again.

[BRIAN]

Am I wrong or wasn't the whole Touring idea based on the fact that when the Trasher (or whatever it was called) was being built it was at the height of Pro Street where cars where built to be show ground cruisers and little else.

Well just like Pro Street that evolved from heavy hitter straight line street cars into rediculous all out show cars that went nowhere Pro Touring is also hitting that mark.


Hey there is competition and everybody wants to have the best of the best. Problem is $500k all out state of the art cars draw attention. Everybody says they hate them but look where the crwods are at the shows. If you have a business that is what you have to build to draw in work. Unfortunatly it escalates into a car that is pefect at being a show car and little else.


I am sure the times will turn as the Street Rodding of muscle cars is the newest tren. Pro Touring cars wil come back to their roots just as Pro Street cars have.


I just can't uinderstand where are all the real Pro Touring cars guys??? All I see is the that is "sick" twin turbo Camaros Or that is "wicked" 315 tire Chevelles that are what you would term posers. How are you going to hit a track with a street car with 1200 hp and that big of an inbalance of tires. Love to see you accelerate out of a turn. Never mind the 20 and 22's added in there.


It is just a term put on a more driveable enjoyable car. Like the kid above said it is just silly to put a serious name on anything. I gaurantee at the next big show I won't be able to see the car with the 26's becuase all the posers here who don't want anybody to know who they are will be standing around it.


Build what you like and use the information here to make your car more enjoyable to drive. Can't beleive I put that much thought and time into an internet site. By the way I never build a car with larger tha 18's if anybody needs any work done. Thanks

[MrQuick]

why does everyone see the Pro-street scene as a negative. Some of them cars were badd a$$$. Some people say its going to go the way of the pro-streeter but only if you let it.

[Nine Ball]

I still like looking at Pro-Street cars. Some of these builders display awesome fab work and design skills. I see get a lot of ideas while looking at them.

I think the main gripe about them is that they "look" fast, but most of them are definitely "poser cars" that only "look" fast. Most hardcore drag racers laugh at pro-street cars because their own drag cars can run 7s and 8s on much smaller 10.5 wide tires and do not need huge wheel tubs, huge tires, and narrowed rear axles to do it. So, the parts seen on Pro-Street cars are way too overkill for the function. Pro-Street cars "look" like they could run 6s in the 1/4, but they aren't even close.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, since this turned into a 20s thread, And since Prodigy and the BillyGoat unvails Tuesday, with 20s, I guess I'll chime in. Our 345 / 25 / 20s on the Forgelines are 2 lbs lighter then the Bonspeed and Budnicks in our shop with 335 / 30/ 18s. A Pirelli 345 / 25 / 20s weight 3 lbs less then Michelin 335 / 30 / 18s, 30 lbs and 33 lbs respectively. A 345 / 25 / 20 is 27" tall in round numbers, and a 335 / 30 /18 is 25" tall, giving both tire / wheel combos 3 1/2" sidewalls. Both tires are 13.8 or so wide. So if the 345 is 2 lbs lighter, but 1 inch taller in radius, what is the net effect of the extra height with the weight advantage factored in. I'll let the suspension gods on here figure that out, I am to tired right now.

I can tell you this, if by chance there is any appreciable disadvantage with the added radius causing an issue, with Prodigy we just over compensated with 750+ HP, massive torque and 14" brakes, on the rear. And oh by the way, do those 345 / 25 / 20 and 295 / 30 / 19s (which BTW the fronts are 3 1/2" sidewalls also) look SICK!!!!

See, in my opinion in is about the package, not the tire / wheel height. Now with all that said. If you want to see me barf, just show me a 20" wagon wheel that is 27" tall and 10" wide. To me that looks like someone is trying to hard to cram tire under there.

[sinned]

I can tell you this; if by chance there is any appreciable disadvantage with the added radius causing an issue, with Prodigy we just over compensated with 750+ HP, massive torque and 14" brakes, on the rear. And oh by the way, do those 345 / 25 / 20 and 295 / 30 / 19s (which BTW the fronts are 3 1/2" sidewalls also) look SICK!!!!

Well by Ralph’s definition that would definitely be a "pro-touring" car as 750HP is way too much power to try and control off corner throttle and a 25 series tire is going offer....zero sidewall deflection.



I will agree that Frank is correct about it being about the package, if you design the entire vehicle to look right with 20" than I'm sure it will. I still contend that anything over 18" is heading down a different path than the original pro-touring design theory. Maybe something like a pro-street tourer or something.



The same principles by which drag racers laugh at the pro-street guys with 14-71 blowers and predators sticking 3 feet out of the hood and 31X20" rubber out back apply here. When you go too far in the design trying to one up the next guy eventually it starts to look silly. How long will be before somebody try’s 24's? It wasn't long ago many on this board were laughing about the idiots trying to stuff 22's on their car something on "Pimp my Ride", now I see a few cars with them albeit tucked a little better.

[ProdigyCustoms]

[color=black] and a 25 series tire is going offer....zero sidewall deflection.

So Dennis, I admit I am not the best at this and a little tired after driving 30 hours so far, but can you explain how a 335 / 30 / 18 that everyone wants to run, (which is THE Pro touring tire of choice) which is a 25" tall, 13.8 wide tire with a 3 1/2" sidewall is more pliable or has more give then a 345 / 25 / 20 tire that is 27" tall, 13.8" wide and has a 3 1/2 inch sidewall also?

I guess I would also be curious to understand why Formula 1, Cart, Trans Am and Nascar do not all lower their hoe=rsepower if 750HP is to much to handle. Here I thought all those cars were ovr powered?

[parsonsj]

but can you explain how a 335 / 30 / 18 that everyone wants to run, (which is THE Pro touring tire of choice)

Frank, I guess I'd question that assumption. To balance a 335 tire, you'd need to run 295s up front, if not 315s. Not many cars lend themselves to that balanced setup. A more balanced way to go would be 245/295, or 265/315. Or better yet, perhaps 265/295.

But, as you say, Prodigy and Billygoat both look great. And they do. I'm looking forward to seeing both in person. Having said that, it is impossible to bend the laws of physics, and it is quite probable that both will perform better with 18 or 17" wheels.

Let's take your example, and see about what the performance penalty of the larger wheels is costing you. The 1" radius difference means the larger wheel/tire combination has about a 17% higher moment of inertia, give or take.

As I've said before in this thread, that's OK. This car club we call pro-touring.com has room for all of us. The bigger wheels look great, but they exact a performance penalty.

jp

[ProdigyCustoms]

OK, so we have 295s up front? Our front tires are 11.8 and the rears 13.8, and all 4 tires have 3 1/2 inch sidewalls as the front are 26" tall on 19" rims, so how could it be more perfect? I always thought 2" front to rear differential and 3 to 3 1/2 inch sidewall was perfect?

And I guess the Holy grail of Pro Touring, The Mule, which has 335s, just has too much tire on it to actually be a Pro Touring car after all? Wait till I tell Charlie he is out of the club!