Sub Frame for a 77 TA

[LS1Bandit]

I've been doin a lot of searching and have learned so much!
I am converting my 77 TA into a pro-touring car, looking into a sub frame swap with a LS1/2 6spd. I want know what everybody reccomends.

I have been looking an the wayne due, but i don't want the front to track so wide that i have to run flat wheels with no dish, i'm not into that look. I want it to track the same as stock.

Martz...I read that it was over priced, kinda flimsy....

Built stock... I would rather have a boxed frame with tubular a-arms.

Any other options?

I am kinda on a budget for the frame $3000-$4000

I wouldn;t mind running the stock 8" snowflake wheels 'til i can save up for some custom 17" snowflakes.

I havn't seen a pro touring 77 bandit TA so i would like to make mine one of the 1st

Any help would be great.

[Blown353]

I don't own an F-body, so I can't comment on the "best" subframe. However, something you proposed warrants a bit of discussion, and that was your track width and wheel comment.

While it may not look "right" having no dish on the front wheels as most new cars have, they have done that for a reason. It is superior to have it that way suspension geometry wise. Ideally you want the center of the front wheels right over the steering axis (the line created by the upper and lower balljoints.) To do this requires running a front wheel with a lot of backspace so the centerline of the wheel (or as close as possible) is situated over the balljoints. "Deep dish" wheels (i.e. not much backspacing) on the front means that the steering axis is far inside of the tire's center of contact. This difference is scrub radius. The greater the scrub radius, the heavier the steering effort and worse yet the car will be prone to wandering and all-around odd and unpredictable behaviors under hard braking, not to mention much more pronounced feedback through the wheel.

In this case I'd recommend sacrificing the look for proper function, but in the end it's your car.

Here's a previous discussion for your reference: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ight=alignment

Troy

[yody]

Totally agree about the front track width, everyone wnats to build protouring cars, but compromises function for looks. Leave deep dish wheels for street rods. There is a member on lateral-g who actually used inferior Mustang II suspension components just so he could have a deeper dish on his wheels instead of using C5 components. Definetly a bad move, especially when you consider that you are spending over $4,000 on a subframe. Basically you would be using the subframe for looks and possilby the use of a Rack and pinion.
]
Also using the stock snowflakes is going to really compromise your brake selection, stock brakes, 15" wheels and deep dish wheels are not going to get you anywere real fast. However I do understand a budget. BUT it would be highly unwise to dump major dollars on a subframe and miss out on way better brakes, tires, and handling.

Sorry if I am coming off harsh, you are on the right track! Keep asking questions, that is a good thing. I too have a second gen bird, and your car sounds cool. If you would consider taking advice, maybe make a post in new car section, or here about what your total plans are, and maybe we can get you in the right direction. good luck!
BTW wayne due would be the only subframe for the second gen i would consider, HOWEVER a start up company called lateral dynamics is going to be releasing a new second gen subframe that should compete with WD's and provide better options, and superior handling.

[formula]

HOWEVER a start up company called lateral dynamics is going to be releasing a new second gen subframe that should compete with WD's and provide better options, and superior handling.

can somebody link me to the lateral dynamics website? i searched all over but no dice...

[yody]

not sure if there is one yet, i have heard the frame is going to be tubular and will clear 315's on the front.

[MrQuick]

can/able to clear but not limited too 315's. Sometimes that scares consumers.
Also to throw it out there, 2nd gen frames are pretty close to optimum in stock form, an addition of reinforced arms and a nice close ratio box helps alot. If you need the bling a set of tube arms can be added. Its alot of cash just to add the r&p option.
Im sure Mark from Lateral Dynamics will chime in soon.

[Mean 69]

(Thanks Yo' and Vinnie...)

Our site is not up yet, but should be in a few days. It'll be pretty sparse to begin with, but will have details on the rear suspension setup we are (yes, we are actually welding metal!!!) introducing at SEMA in two (gasp) weeks. Yody and others will love me too, we are going to powder coat the display unit! I know, I know.....

We will have a front subframe out and ready for market in the January/February '06 timeframe, possibly sooner, for the second gen F-bodies. Based upon what you describe though, I am not sure that this will be what you are looking for. It is true that you can use very large tires and have favorable geometry, but not with the dished wheels you are thinking of using. You'll need to run the late model Corvette type offset wheels (not "the Corvette" wheels, but a similar offset), so it won't have the look you are after. For you tech folks, the current suspension model has the scrub radius at less than 1", with the big tires, under the stock body, and will still allow a nice turning radius. It WILL rock. Period.

I'll agree with Vinnie's comments about the second gen being a whole bunch better, than, for instance, a first gen, but honestly we were pretty surprised at the opportunity for improvement when we stripped Lateral II down. It's a front steer, which is good, and it looks as if some of the really nasty geometry issues are improved, but it gets really limited very quickly. The spindle pin is really low on the stock spindles, so lowering the car with the stock stuff is probably not a terribly good option. Everyone's favorite, "camber gain" really isn't all that hot either (look at the outside tire on G28 in PHR, it's leaning over pretty good in the slalom pic's), we were pretty surprised when we pulled the springs out of the car and dropped if for mockup purposes: tires were "stood up" pretty darned steep for a really low ride height. Anyway, it should be clear that we are pretty 'core, so the stock stuff is probably the best place to start unless you are going to go all out. Additionally, for $4k, I think you can get some really nice handling goodies for the stock frame, and then use the additional savings for something important, like "real" brakes.

Stock frames are far more rigid that folks give them credit for, and not nearly as heavy as folks would make you think. Strip one down, and the frame itself is actually not that heavy, you can easily lift yourself. My guess is that for 90% of the hobbyists, a well tuned stock frame with the right springs, shocks, and rebuilt/faster steering box would be perfect. Clean the thing up, seam weld it (by a pro), and carefully align, etc, and there is little doubt that you'll be pretty darned happy with it. I don't see any reason to go to an aftermarket frame, unless you are very serious about maximum handling, and then, well, there will only be one piece to choose from.

We should have some engineering models to look at in the next couple of weeks, and we will post on our site (by the way, we're doing a first gen front too...). I am always reachable via PM's.

Mark

[LS1Bandit]

Ok, well i have to QA1 coil overs now and a WS6 quick ratio gear box and large sway bar. What other parts do you reccomend if i biuld the stock frame?

If i was to get the Wayne Due, what could i expect $$ to build the whole suspension? I assume picking up a front Vette susp from a salvage yard would save money. I didn't know that the dished wheels would hurt the handling. Well then its ruled out!

Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming!!

[yody]

dished wheels don't automatically hurt the handling, it really depends, if they truly have a really deep dish, the scrub radius will suffer and the feel at the steering wheel will be worse.

The point is, if you were to shell out all the money for an aftermarket frame, it woudl be foolish to not take full advantage of the suspension, and use inferior stuff just to get the dish on the wheels.

Not sure onj the price of the frame, but if you are truly on a budget I would definetly use the stock frame and put the other money towards wheels/brakes/tires. With stock frame you will also still be able to keep somewhat of a "dish" on the wheels, usually about a 2-3" dish. I would recommend some tubular control arms, just for the fact that you get the proper caster without a ton of shims, plus they look pretty lol. You already have a decent steering box, sway bar, and shock/spring system, u already have it pretty much done, I would reinforce the lower control arms to work with the coilovers, put some del-a-lum bushings in them, seam weld the frame, and start looking at braking systems.

[LS1Bandit]

Awesome, i think that would be the best route for me, when i seam weld the frame, can i grind the weld down smooth so it has a finished look?

Also solid body mounts? which sub frame connectors? Global west for the control arms?

BTW badass formula!

[yody]

someone else will have to respond about the seam welding, as I am not sure. Definetly solid body mounts, If you can get them go with the speedtech control arms, they only cost $450, compared to $600 for the gw ones. But beware speedtech is a piece of crap company "to deal with" good product though. DO NOT use the crappy CE connectors, use either global west or Alston Racing connectors. They connect from both frame rails not the leaf spring pocket
BTW thanks

[LS1Bandit]

The only speedtech control arms i could find were at ecklers and for 1st gens. Anybody have a link for 2nd gen?

[BonzoHansen]

http://www.speedtech-performance.com...per%20arms.htm

Uppers are $539.

[MrQuick]

On the seam welding don't grind the welds unless you know what your doing. You can fill build then grind but there has to be material there. It would not be worth it cause a majority of it cannot be seen,
When you weld the frame, run 3 braces. 1 at the front horns 1 across the upper arm mounts and 1 at the rear frame runners.This will decrease the chances of warpage.

[LS1Bandit]

When you weld the frame, run 3 braces. 1 at the front horns 1 across the upper arm mounts and 1 at the rear frame runners.This will decrease the chances of warpage.

I should add the braces before i remove the frame from the car?

Also, can i bolt the body directly to the frame to help lower the car?

[LS1Bandit]

Thanks guys! I can't wait to get started on this project. Now all i need to do is sell the 454!

[Marcus SC&C]

You can do some pretty impressive things with the stock subframe. Here`s a pic of a customer project Firebird we did 4 or 5 years ago. Stock subframe,modified for adj. Carrera coilovers with adj. lower mounts,stock lower arms (fully boxed),Del-a-lum bushings,relocated UCA mounts for improved geometry,steering redone with AGR and NASCAR components etc. etc. You don`t have to get that carried away but it should give you an idea of what`s possible without scrapping the subframe.
I build my own `78 Bandit clone TA street legal road racer in `89. 16" rubber was still super exotic back then so I made due with big 50 series 15" tires. It actually worked pretty well. I wish I`d had our adj. tubular arms and suspension package for it back then! I love those cars,give a call at the shop or drop me an e mail if you want to chat about mods. Marcus SC&C

[MrQuick]

just tack on the braces after removal and before you remove the trans cross member.

Lower mounts add more trouble than help.

[79T/Aman]

you could it would be just as easy to brace the front and across the upper control arm mounts when in the car.