Head is spinning - Looking for a suspension answer

[Cornbreadx]

Greetings all,

New here and have read through a number of forums on the subject of suspension. Even with my advanced degree, I still feel as if the way things are written, I need a double PhD to filter through all the relevant data. So rather than read a gazillion more forums and get even further confused, I figure I would just post the question I have and see if I can get directed to or have the answer posted more efficiently!

I have a 69 Camaro, 383 Stroker - stock suspension with disc front. Looking to upgrade wheels from the stock size to either 17" or 18" - either 225/45 tires for the 17 with 4" bs or 245/40 tires for the 18" with 4.875 bs. I know.. big diff... so to make it easy, let's just stick with the 17" idea at the moment.

With upgrading the wheels to this larger size, I also want to drop the front 1-2" because it is nose up at the moment from stock suspension. This change will level it out, especially when I go with the larger wheel on the back end. So... the question is - what's a good suggestion for a suspension change that will work for a stock subframe?



I know I can just order a new subframe and get the whole gig in one shot - starting at 3500 for a complete subframe swap with new suspension- but I'd like to try doing this under 1500 if possible + wheels and tires. There is so much information out there about coil over (good and bad) spindle swap (good and bad) and it's very unclear what actually is GOOD information and what is NOT GOOD information. My head is spinning at this point trying to read through and, beyond that, find the parts people are talking about! Any help would be appreciated and I am happy to answer any and all questions.

Thanks!

[Rod]

....what are you try to achieve for 1500 dollars....since your objectives didn't discuss any performance

sounds like you want just a lowered look with wheels

1) buy your wheels and cut your front springs

[Cornbreadx]

Need to fit the wheels and lower the front end. Performance is optional. Although the car is a street car for sure, I enjoy it as a daily driver that turns heads. I commute on roads that are straight and the speed limit is less than 55... so it doesn't need ridiculous cornering/handling ability. I am really just going for an overall look than "I need to build a car that turns on a dime at 40 with a drag coefficient that doesn't exceed X" kind of thing. Any upgrade will give me performance enhancement... but not all upgrades will work with the two main objectives - drop 1-2" and change to 17" or 18" wheel size as listed above.

[Cornbreadx]

....what are you try to achieve for 1500 dollars....since your objectives didn't discuss any performance

sounds like you want just a lowered look with wheels

1) buy your wheels and cut your front springs

Oh... and I don't want to cut the "stock" springs for two reasons:

1) cutting springs can weaken the integrity of the spring at the cut. Done this once... worked for a while, then over time, the lower part started warping that lead to other suspension issues.

2) Cut springs have weaker re-bound so steering system will end up taking a lot of unnecessary punishment in the end. As per previous #1 - cut springs cost me an entire steering system in my previous project car.

So that's why I am asking for further input here. :-) Cutting springs might work if I purchase more heavy duty springs... but if I am going to purchase something that I will inevitably have to cut... why not just get the right part and not bother with the labor of cutting and fitting.

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

If you need to stay under $1500 then I would track down a set of lowering springs for the stock arms and add a set of our new "VariShock SS" factory valved VariShock bolt-in shocks at all four corners. Click Here For Shocks.

For $1740 you can lower the car a couple inches and improve the handling by installing our g-Street Coilover Suspension. It includes upper and lower control arms with polymer bearings, offset caster slugs, and a pair of QS-1 VariShock coilovers with spherical pivot-ball top mounts that bolt right in at the stock mounting point. Click Here For More Info.

[Rod]

Oh... and I don't want to cut the "stock" springs for two reasons:

1) cutting springs can weaken the integrity of the spring at the cut. Done this once... worked for a while, then over time, the lower part started warping that lead to other suspension issues.

2) Cut springs have weaker re-bound so steering system will end up taking a lot of unnecessary punishment in the end. As per previous #1 - cut springs cost me an entire steering system in my previous project car.

So that's why I am asking for further input here. :-) Cutting springs might work if I purchase more heavy duty springs... but if I am going to purchase something that I will inevitably have to cut... why not just get the right part and not bother with the labor of cutting and fitting.

now I have a real objectives.....ok

Guldstarnd mod 20 bucks....Link

DSE front springs,for the 2 inch drop 99 bucks each..Link

DSE front sway bar 200 bucks....Link

Foose wheels in 17 inch 700 bucks....Link

thats a good start I would look at some adjustable shocks also Hotchkis and ridetech both make some adjustable shocks around 500 bucks for all four and also some subframe connectors

[TheJDMan]

now I have a real objectives.....ok

Guldstarnd mod 20 bucks....Link

DSE front springs,for the 2 inch drop 99 bucks each..Link

DSE front sway bar 200 bucks....Link

Foose wheels in 17 inch 700 bucks....Link

thats a good start I would look at some adjustable shocks also Hotchkis and ridetech both make some adjustable shocks around 500 bucks for all four and also some subframe connectors

I recommend you pay attention to what Rod has to say, he has done a lot with his Camaro and has not spent crazy amounts of money. I know Rod has a build thread but I can't find it at the moment.

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

The op said "I'd like to try doing this under 1500 if possible + wheels and tires" so there's a little more than a college student budget involved. Although, on a very small budget, Rod's suggestions are definitely a good solution.

[Cornbreadx]

The op said "I'd like to try doing this under 1500 if possible + wheels and tires" so there's a little more than a college student budget involved. Although, on a very small budget, Rod's suggestions are definitely a good solution.

Trust me... I am a masters student in college with a meager stipend. It is a small budget in deed. I am working to get the car my father left me in meticulous order with limited money. These suggestions are exactly what I am looking for! Much work still to be done, but... its getting there. I literally spent the entire summer - all my free time - doing body work and engine swap last summer. It's come a long way from the utter rust bucket it was. I'll see if I can post some pics.

[Cornbreadx]

Here starting with a ton of work ahead of me.



This side wasn't so bad. Quite a bit of fiberglass and body shaping, but I got it molded to appear as one piece like I wanted. Sweet custom look.



This side was a lot worse. It had been hit/damaged with a lot of rot towards the underside. It took about 36 hours to get it all shaped correctly and matching to the correct contours.



Another really rough spot. The previous owner before my family purchased had this thing with filling holes with caulking. No joke... I literally pulled about 6 tubes of caulking from the car, this spot had a tube stuffed in there on its own. I used what was left and POR the rust to seal it after scrubbing it as much as I could get to. I then fiberglassed the shape back in with about 4 layers and later molded with body filler to shape.



Still a work in progress. This was after the entire summer - literally from April 2014 to September 2014 to get it all back into shape and running smooth. I have some body panel adjustments to still make + a few areas that are still rough in the work I had done, but I wanted to spend the fall driving it some so I got it road ready.

[killer69]

[QUOTE=Cornbreadx;1119452]

Here starting with a ton of work ahead of me.



This side wasn't so bad. Quite a bit of fiberglass and body shaping, but I got it molded to appear as one piece like I wanted. Sweet custom look.



This side was a lot worse. It had been hit/damaged with a lot of rot towards the underside. It took about 36 hours to get it all shaped correctly and matching to the correct contours.



Another really rough spot. The previous owner before my family purchased had this thing with filling holes with caulking. No joke... I literally pulled about 6 tubes of caulking from the car, this spot had a tube stuffed in there on its own. I used what was left and POR the rust to seal it after scrubbing it as much as I could get to. I then fiberglassed the shape back in with about 4 layers and later molded with body filler to shape.






you DIDN'T!!

[Marcus SC&C]

Cornbreadx, lowering the car and swapping wheels and tires is pretty easy if "performance is optional". But that said, unless it`s a static display car for a museum, performance is never really optional. Performance isn`t just going around corners at 100mph with your hair on fire, it`s every day drivability, ride quality, how nice the car is to live with on a daily basis. Cars are like women, every guy likes one that looks really hot but if you`re going to live with her everyday it`s a lot better if she`s easy to get along with and a good cook. Soooo with that in mind, why not make the car much better than it is now, and still lower it, and still stay on budget?
I`ll second some of the other suggestions here and start with DSE front springs, 2" ones so we still retain a good amount of bump travel for daily street use. Their rate will improve handling, help keep the car from bottoming out and their higher natural ride frequency will make the car wallow less and respond to repeated bumps more quickly. Next up I`ll go with Carl and second the Varishock SS shocks. For just a little more than the price of a set of old school Konis you get a state of the art Grand Touring shock that can out handle many double adjustables but still provides great ride quality. Feedback has been awesome so far but they`re selling like turkey legs at a Ren Faire and are already backordered several weeks so order early with these if you can. This spring and shock combo provides ride and control that`s remarkably BMW-esque but on a very reasonable budget.
Now we`ve covered ride height and control but there`s still an 800lb gorilla in the room, the car`s really lousy stock suspension, steering geometry and alignment. I want to stress here that we`re not talking about taking a system that`s okay and making it better to make it some kind of a road race car. We`re talking about a system that takes a significant amount of reengineering to get it to the same level as a full sized van from the 1970s. On a tight budget I`d suggest our Stage 2-Plus package. It works with the stock spindles and uses the bare minimum of parts to correct the backward camber curves (which also dramatically improves tire clearance), raises and stabilizes the roll center and corrects the bump steer. It also allows you to run a good modern alignment. It`s simple and it`s an easy bolt on. All this brings you in at around $1200, add matching rear Varishock SS shocks and you`re still just under $1500 but you`ve got an entirely different car, a reengineered car that drives like a modern performance car. With the stance you want for the new wheels and tires.
FYI if you`re going with 17" wheels and this package we`d usually run 17x8 fronts with 4.75" BS and a 245-45-17. Provided you have stock disc brake track width it clears great even at full lock and full stuff. 4" isn`t enough, especially with stock camber curves, it`ll rub on the outer fender lip.
As always, feel free to call and take advantage of our "Free Suspension Counseling Service". Mark SC&C

[HomeBuilt]

you DIDN'T!!

i was thinking the same thing...

[Cornbreadx]

i was thinking the same thing...

didn't what?... did I miss something?

[Cornbreadx]

Cornbreadx, lowering the car and swapping wheels and tires is pretty easy if "performance is optional". But that said, unless it`s a static display car for a museum, performance is never really optional. Performance isn`t just going around corners at 100mph with your hair on fire, it`s every day drivability, ride quality, how nice the car is to live with on a daily basis. Cars are like women, every guy likes one that looks really hot but if you`re going to live with her everyday it`s a lot better if she`s easy to get along with and a good cook. Soooo with that in mind, why not make the car much better than it is now, and still lower it, and still stay on budget?
I`ll second some of the other suggestions here and start with DSE front springs, 2" ones so we still retain a good amount of bump travel for daily street use. Their rate will improve handling, help keep the car from bottoming out and their higher natural ride frequency will make the car wallow less and respond to repeated bumps more quickly. Next up I`ll go with Carl and second the Varishock SS shocks. For just a little more than the price of a set of old school Konis you get a state of the art Grand Touring shock that can out handle many double adjustables but still provides great ride quality. Feedback has been awesome so far but they`re selling like turkey legs at a Ren Faire and are already backordered several weeks so order early with these if you can. This spring and shock combo provides ride and control that`s remarkably BMW-esque but on a very reasonable budget.
Now we`ve covered ride height and control but there`s still an 800lb gorilla in the room, the car`s really lousy stock suspension, steering geometry and alignment. I want to stress here that we`re not talking about taking a system that`s okay and making it better to make it some kind of a road race car. We`re talking about a system that takes a significant amount of reengineering to get it to the same level as a full sized van from the 1970s. On a tight budget I`d suggest our Stage 2-Plus package. It works with the stock spindles and uses the bare minimum of parts to correct the backward camber curves (which also dramatically improves tire clearance), raises and stabilizes the roll center and corrects the bump steer. It also allows you to run a good modern alignment. It`s simple and it`s an easy bolt on. All this brings you in at around $1200, add matching rear Varishock SS shocks and you`re still just under $1500 but you`ve got an entirely different car, a reengineered car that drives like a modern performance car. With the stance you want for the new wheels and tires.
FYI if you`re going with 17" wheels and this package we`d usually run 17x8 fronts with 4.75" BS and a 245-45-17. Provided you have stock disc brake track width it clears great even at full lock and full stuff. 4" isn`t enough, especially with stock camber curves, it`ll rub on the outer fender lip.
As always, feel free to call and take advantage of our "Free Suspension Counseling Service". Mark SC&C

Not to worry. I am going to upgrade the springs/shocks with a Hotchkis. Furthermore, I am purchasing the sway bar as recommended. I plan on getting VN805 either 17 or 18 rims with the recommended size tires and having them test fit to ensure they will work.

I understand what you are saying for sure... and trust me... I have all the right intentions. In due time...

[killer69]

didn't what?... did I miss something?

I then fiberglassed the shape back in with about 4 layers and later molded with body filler to shape.

[Cornbreadx]

I then fiberglassed the shape back in with about 4 layers and later molded with body filler to shape.

That may sound bad, but body filler alone is a problem. Body filler collects water over time, and if it accumulates long enough, you can get severe rust developing which is cancerous to the metal. By applying thin layers of fiberglass with a resin, you create an area that is impervious to water - thus sealing in any area that once had rust or was rusted. Trust me... Fiberglass, if used correctly, is a superior product to just using body filler. And a layer of fiberglass is literally paper thin. 4 layers were used just to add strength.

I am a chemist by profession. I cringe when I see people just using body filler and then wondering why 5 years later, they are fixing the problem again or get bubbling or whatever.

[HomeBuilt]

That may sound bad, but body filler alone is a problem. Body filler collects water over time, and if it accumulates long enough, you can get severe rust developing which is cancerous to the metal. By applying thin layers of fiberglass with a resin, you create an area that is impervious to water - thus sealing in any area that once had rust or was rusted. Trust me... Fiberglass, if used correctly, is a superior product to just using body filler. And a layer of fiberglass is literally paper thin. 4 layers were used just to add strength.

I am a chemist by profession. I cringe when I see people just using body filler and then wondering why 5 years later, they are fixing the problem again or get bubbling or whatever.

I have literally spent the last 2 years replacing panels that someone bondo'd/resined over rusted metal and every time I find a section it drives me nuts! I've cut out a TON of rust and replaced the damaged areas with fresh metal. I think a lot of people on this forum would not repair rust by hiding it. Just my two cents, at least you'll be driving your car long before mine is out of paint!

[Cornbreadx]

I have literally spent the last 2 years replacing panels that someone bondo'd/resined over rusted metal and every time I find a section it drives me nuts! I've cut out a TON of rust and replaced the damaged areas with fresh metal. I think a lot of people on this forum would not repair rust by hiding it. Just my two cents, at least you'll be driving your car long before mine is out of paint!

ahhh well... I don't cover the rust. I actually have ground out a ton and then neutralized and sealed what little was left. Covering rust is never good. it's not until I have fully neutralized and sealed it do I even bother with resin and then bondo.

There are 26 ways to do things... but only one or two that actually work. replacing body panels, and fully curing the problem. The rest is just cheap gimmicks that do not work.

The POR system has worked for me in the past. My 81 camaro project was done up with that and after 15 years... not a single rust spot ever re-materialized again. You have to do all the steps including the sealer and painting - then you can address holes and other things.

I now see what you are saying... and I totally agree. However, I have really taken the time to address all those issues. Things I plan to replace, I haven't touched. Since I am not replacing the rear of the car, it was important for me to do it right the first time.

[wendell]

Next owner is going to be blind with rage when he goes to repaint it.