Painters, I just don't understand!!!!!!

[protouring70]

This is not in reference to all painters.

This guy has had my car for about 1.5 yrs. At first he told me that if he couldn't get it done in 3 months he would loose money. I knew that wouldn't happen so I figures 6 months or so. So here I am 1.5 yrs down the road, I get the body, doors and deck lid. Now I paid him 1000 dollars up front when I took the car, now he wants 3000 and hasn't finished the other pieces yet. In the begining I told him I would pay him half when I get the body and pcs. and the other half when he is done. Pretty fair I thought, Well i take him 2000, and he says I won't finish till I get what I asked for. So I guess I will pay up to get finished , but I can't stand having to deal with stuff like this!!!!!

I just had to blow off some steam, sorry.

[southernfriedcj]

PT70, sounds like a huge PITA.
What's the name of the shop?

Jim in Athens

[jy211]

nothing like strong armin'.....

[Steve1968LS2]

That is why I call it paint hell or paint prison.. they basicly have you by the short hairs once they start your car.. Boy, could I tell you stories.

Which is one reason I paid a premium for Penny.. perfect body and paint saves me from the nightmare of dealing with most paint shops.

[wantahertzdonut]

Now why exactly does this have to happen in the first place? Seriously, I've never seen an industry that I routinely hear about shops taking an insane amount of time to complete a job that should in most (if not all) cases only take a couple months? So often I hear about guys taking their cars in, and after 2 years the car might be half done. By the time some of these guys get their cars back, they need to be repainted AGAIN!

I have friends who do professional quality jobs in their home garages, and they're done in less than 3-4 months, and that's working IN THEIR SPARE TIME!!! Maybe 4-5 hours a few nights a week on their own. For a professional painter who does nothing but bodywork and painting, I'd expect that time to be less than half! The only case I might understand is a waiting list, in which case I would not bring the car in until they were ready. But if I had my car IN A SHOP and I waited more than 6 months for a job to get finished, I'd be going back and getting my car AND a refund.

Because of this you can bet I'll be painting my car myself!

[astroracer]

Like wantahertzdonut said this is exactly why I learned to do this stuff myself. Take all that money you are giving to a lazy ass and buy the tools and equipment to do the job yourself. Then the only person you can blame is you...
Mark

[68protouring454]

there are bad paint shops, and there are bad car owners.
going into a project car, you should know what the shop does for worki, ie collision, or only restore, now in the country guys do both, but you can still reach an agreement and the best way is to set a rough time line, and come up wih an agrement of payment along the way, this keeps both parties focusing on the goal. of course you will need to plunk down 50% or so at starting point, but then have set points where money is paid, that way if it takes too long to get to that point, you pull it then, or rectify the contract etc on the car to meet deadlines.
however 50% of guys doing cars is out of pocket over time, so this is an issue also, YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO PAY WHEN THE GOAL IS REACHED, not ok i will bring money by next week, body guys need to be paind too and thats why the collision is so attractive, quick jobs and good money, plus the better body guy can do 80 hrs work in 40 hrs, so he makes double, so why would he work for 40 an hr on an old car that needs to be perfect, when he can work on drivers for 80 per hr? this is one man shop etc. i have no issues setting up goals, set points , but the owner needs to be able to meet those also, because if i put the time in the car and reach point i need cash flow, to pay myself and bills, period.
there it is
jake

[Steve Chryssos]

So what's the right thing to do now? If he pays in full before the job is finished then the shop will have the car and all the money. What then would be the incentive to finsih the job correctly and in a timely manner? He can take another two years or botch the job without the deterrence of non-payment.

[68protouring454]

is this to me or pro touring70??
i never am paid completely for a job in advance and i would never ask fo it. 50% at start of job is common place.
if the shop wil not do a contract then walk away, have a contract stipulating, what will be done, when , and when payments will be made, sign and be done. either way it gets to suck if one side screws up. but i have no problem someone telling me i want the car at this date etc, then it will be priced accordingly etc and we agree, i generally get 50% at drop, then 25% when ready for paint, then last 25% on completed project where owner is happy, then everyones happy. there are plenty of bad shops out there, but there are also plenty of car owners that look for the cheapest price too and thats when the shops get bad, and theres no agreement in writing or anything so it turns into you said i said, get it in writing to terms you can agre with, both sign, then if one side does not comply, its there in writing.
if i were him i would tell shop to **** off and take parts, even if he owes money on parts he obviously does not have a heart, ask what time he has in them, tell him your bailing on project even if you are not, it can avoid a more heated argument, and ask him for a fair bill on what time he has in them, but either way it sounds like he is a ****

jake

[Steve Chryssos]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to be a wisenheimer, Jake. Just asking for your honest opinion on what should be Protouring70's next move--Which you answered.
/Steevo

[Damn True]

What a drag. Sounds like the painter has him by the short hairs either way.

Here is a thread on Lat-g that Steve turned me onto. Some good discussion on the subject in there.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/show...ght=paint+jail

[BonzoHansen]

I can't help much now (other than say get your car out of there), but for future Projects, this is great reading.

http://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=003401;p=0

[Damn True]

I find it really wierd that we as a group so commonly accept this kind of thing from body shops. If it were a roofing contractor, or a guy renovating your master bathroom would we accept that kind of thing?

[68protouring454]

you except it cause you want something for nothing, do you run your roofer or house builder down in price?? when you go to mcdonalds do you run them down in price?? no, you get what you pay for, period.
most roofers and builders do contracts period, if they don't i would not let them within 50 ft of property.
bodywork is no different then anything else, you guys just have no idea what goes into, or you would do it yourself. rant over
now there are 10-20% of guys that want the best job done, and have the money when ready, the other 80% are dreamers doing it out of pocket, then when they finnaly get the money they think the painter should jump on it cause they have the money now.NO
you need to have money set aside, ready, there is too much lore from the collision side to not be able to pay when shop wants another payment, you don't have money guy does other projects and you go down list period, i do this everyday, and i have met very few that do not want to haggle price, this and that .
i am all for price checking, but you cannot compare a broken down no spraybooth shops price, to a 2-3 man, new spraybooth equiped nice shops price. you need to go to best around and get estimates then compare, then choose painter then talk it over and come to agreed figure, and timeline, and work to be done, and sign. like a builder you work, its now time and materials for the extra work he is not held to the estimate as its not in the estimate.
the biggest thing is comunication, be open with the timeline you have, if the shop can meet it, and get it on paper, don't just think it will happen a certain way.
i am doing a 67 mustang fb gt and i have had it for 5 months but agreed with guy i would give him 30-40 hrs a month until he wanted to pull the plug and do it, hes happy, i am happy and i can find 40 hrs during the month to get on it, also he is more than welcome to stop by anytime and check car, progress, i take digital pics of everything, from damage to progress.
jake

[vanzuuk1]

Nothings worse than the guys who dont realize what a long dirty job it is to paint a car. The problem is comunication on both sides, I have been on both ends. When you build a good relationship with a body shop its a win/win situation.

[JMitch19]

If I were you I would get the car out of his shop. I would take the three grand he wants and find another shop to finish the jobs even if it costs more in the long run. If the first shop had a problem with that I would call the police explain what happened and I would have an officer at the shop when I went to get my car.

Good luck with your car. I'm not sure what some shops are thinking when they do work for customers. It's like they take no pride in there work. I just for once want to have something done that exceeds my expectations.

[ProdigyCustoms]

There is no reason a car cannot be finished in 3 months for P and B unless it has real wild custom fab work. There are some cure times, but anything past that is getting crazy. More then 50% up front is way to much, we do 30%, 30% ready to spray, and 30% to finish.

What really amazes me is how stupid some shops are, and how they do not know how to value that space the car is sleeping in. At $8 a square foot, a car consuming a 15 X 20 foot space is eating $600 in rent every 3 months, or $2400 per year. So if a $10,000 3 month paint job takes a year, the shop looses $1800 potential profit because he padi rent for a year on a spot that could have produced 4 cars, instead of one. So how does he make it up, by getting a deposit from someone else to fund his losses on the sitting car.

I was talking to a fellow member today, discussing this very thing. We all have cars that sleep from time to time, every shop has one. it is when you have multiples that it becomes a problem.

Your next move should be to give him his requested draw, and request a firm date with a penalty clause of $50 a day for every day he is late. Baring personally tragedy, acts of God, etc. We do it!

[shoddy_f-body]

More then 50% up front is way to much, we do 30%, 30% ready to spray, and 30% to finish.

What about the other 10% ?

[68fusion]

I'm not sure what some shops are thinking when they do work for customers. It's like they take no pride in there work. I just for once want to have something done that exceeds my expectations.

Yep ...most over promise and under deliver. The problem in most shops is the abundance of resto work and the seesaw of good paying bumper/fender work. When they get slack they take in resto work thinking they can "knock it out" and make OK money. Well other "better paying" work comes in and your car gets used as a table or coffee/soda can holder. It is almost always better to deal with a specialist ...if you can afford. You get what you pay for - I realize everybody doesn't need a $10,000 paint job ...but I often fix cars that have been done poorly by other people, owner got fed up with bodyshop "a" . In the end he pays what we wanted to do the whole job in the first place. Remember " Cheap work is not good , Good work is not cheap"

[shoddy_f-body]

Yes a lot of people cant afford a $10,000 paint job, but when you bring a rusted out banged up 'classic' to a shop what do you expect? Do you expect the shop to compromise their reputation by halfassing a job that needs 250 hours of work because you can only afford 50 hours? And you want it perfect too. I agree with the guy that said a lot of people are dreamers. They think they can afford it but when it comes down to plunking down the cash They cant do it.Then its the shop is this and that. You can say that the shops are only worried about the quick insurance money,well if you think they are going to pay the bills waiting for Joe classic car owner to drop by with a payment your wrong. Most dont know what it takes to do a car the right way. Its a lot of hard dirty work. Painting is the easy part. Its the countless hours of fitting, blocking and obsessing over every little detail that most people would never even notice that eats up time.To the original poster i would tell him you want to see a certain amount of progress, then you'll pay x amount,a little more progress,a little more cash and so on. If he knows the owner is coming with cash on Friday, chances are he's not going to want to let you down.