1972 Monte Carlo Front Suspension

[marolf101x]

If you desire a true coil over set up that does not require cutting and fabrication of the stock frame we have the solution:
http://www.ridetech.com/store/muscle...ures_hash=V282

We interface the coil over at the OE upper shock mount. We use our lower control arm to not only put the coil over in a double shear mount, but also drop the shock a bit so the stroke is correct.
Remember, the front suspension will move roughly 5" at the wheel. With a 2:1 motion ratio the shock only moves half that, or 2.5". So you can put a 2.5" stroke shock or a 10" stroke shock in there and it will still only move the wheel 5".

[Mully]

If you desire a true coil over set up that does not require cutting and fabrication of the stock frame we have the solution:
http://www.ridetech.com/store/muscle...ures_hash=V282

We interface the coil over at the OE upper shock mount. We use our lower control arm to not only put the coil over in a double shear mount, but also drop the shock a bit so the stroke is correct.
Remember, the front suspension will move roughly 5" at the wheel. With a 2:1 motion ratio the shock only moves half that, or 2.5". So you can put a 2.5" stroke shock or a 10" stroke shock in there and it will still only move the wheel 5".

I am starting to feel like I am in mech. design class back in engineering school !!! That was a LONG time ago…a LONG LONG time ago. There certainly is no shortage of options for redoing these suspensions. Ok! More reading is on my list for today.

I almost hate to ask another question, I think I have a good deal of the basic coil over installation option data rounded up now. I guess I know enough to be dangerous as they say!!! Since I seem to be lucky enough to have an audience composed of some the top suppliers in this area here goes. As already stated this is not going to be a hard core competition Autocross car, I just need some rebuilding and figure whey not make some improvements while I am at it. IF I said I want to use original spindles (as opposed to drop spindles) then I am looking at tall ball joints in whatever arms I go for Y/N? Without the taller ball joints or a taller spindle the geometry improvements that the arms deliver are minimized / negated. So what are the opinions of the experts on taller ball joints? Remember this is not going to be a car that will be driven to the ragged edge of the handling envelope. Are there issues with taller joints I need to be aware of or are they a good, relatively painless solution to save some money on new spindles?

Thanks to everyone!!!!

[UMI Tech]

We've been using tall ball joints successfully for a few years now. In almost every case we add spindle height to an A-body whether it be with tall ball joints or a dedicated spindle. On some drag cars we don't bother...

Adding 1/2" ball joints height helps a bit, adding 1/2" lower and 1/2" upper helps even more. Our current tallest solution is 1.4" (0.5" lower, 0.9" upper). The 1.4" additional helps the system gain around 0.9 deg/inch which seems to work well.

These are relatively painless but do tend to require shortened upper a-arms to achieve the proper alignment without stacking a ton of shims in there. We designed our 4056-3 for that situation.

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...roducts_id=761

Thanks for looking.

ramey

[SSLance]

Hey Mully,

We used tall lower ball joints on my car with the stock spindles. Ron Sutton helped me pick out the parts based on the suspension mapping I had done, the parts I already had on hand, and the most economical way to get to where we wanted to be geometry wise. From what I understand, there is no set menu of parts that works for every setup...you can tailor each build to fit all of the particular needs.

That said, having used the howe tall ball joints on two separate sets of lower control arms now, I'm a believer in them. The quality is good, and they perform as expected. No issues with them in that regard at all. Whether they fit with your particular geometry needs is up to you (and those helping you design your upgrades) but I would not be afraid to use them for any reason.

In designing what you want to end up with, these are all considerations to think about in no particular order:

Final static ride height
Full suspension travel up and down from that ride height
Spring rate to hold the car at that height plus allow full travel up and down
Shock valving to control how fast the suspension travels over different terrain
Geometry settings to establish the static caster and camber at that final ride height and the caster \ camber gain under suspension compression

There may be several different ways to skin those cats, and to each their own...but the basics remain the same for all. You can't slam a car to the ground and expect to get the suspension performance that you will get with a similar car that has substantially more suspension travel. Tall lower ball joints and stock height spindles allow some ride height drop without compromising full suspension travel or camber gain. The upper control arm configuration and ball joints seem to have a larger effect on total camber gain under compression and static caster settings.

Not unlike my car, the factory geometry on your car is horrible for cornering. Anything you do to correct that geometry will help, each thing you do to correct it and make it better will add onto the rest of the changes...it is up to you if you do it all at once or piece mail your way into it. I've piece mailed my way into my upgrades and it just keeps getting better and better all of the time. The very first change I made for the positive when I replaced my factory upper control arms, swapped in 2" drop springs, and switched the stock spindles back in for the drop spindles made a huge improvement in the cornering traction. Then when Ron started helping me and we went with more of a high travel \ low roll 'tweener setup, it got that much and more better again by adding suspension travel and setting the geometry for maximum camber gain with that extra travel. This last time around I've changed up the spring\shock setup by adding the ridetech Triple Adjustable TQ coilovers and once again made a huge step in performance gains. It is ultimately up to you how many changes you want to make and how or when you make them, just use all of the help you have available to you in making those decisions and getrdone... You will love them once finished, I guarantee it.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey Chris, thanks for the plug and the link.

Mully-

On the 6 pack. Isn't it interesting, in a lot of cases a single carb will outperform dual carbs or a 6 pack. But, don't think a single carb will ever earn as many points for the bling bling factor.

The advantages of a coilover- The housing is threaded so that you can easily adjust ride height, you get approximately 2 1/2" of adjustment range. In your case where you want to maintain factory height, if later you want to drop it .5" or 1" or... the ability is already built in. Should you decide to race a little later on you can also swap out springs for a higher spring rate or different dynamic super easy, or have different springs for different tracks/ driving conditions. On the Viking shock, which is a little newer company but their products are proving themselves and becoming more and more popular, you get a double adjustable set up. This means that you can control compression- (as the tires go over a bump or the car leans into a corner) and rebound (the return of the shock to static position) individually by simply turning a knob. I have adjustable shocks on my car and it's incredible what they can do for ride and handling. I can crank them down and get a Caddy like ride to the track, then turn them up for better handling. As I make track runs I can go back to the pits and fine tune by making small adjustments to control things like body roll and under/over steer. They're worth the cost for a dual purpose car. Coilovers are also valved with performance in mind. Heavy duty parts are used throughout, they're machined to high tolerances and it is anticipated that they'll take some abuse. Many are rebuildable should you ever need that done.

A hybrid like Chris said, is what I was leaning towards in my looong post above. It's a new way to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. You get all the benefits of the coilover shock because it's essentially the same shock body. The main difference is that while it mounts like a coilover on the bottom and has a small spring diameter with the lower adjusting nuts, it has a conical spring that gets wider at the top that fits up in the factory spring pocket like a normal coil spring. The top of the shock body mounts in the normal shock position, so once the factory coil spring is out of the way, installing or removing them is no different than replacing a regular shock. Here's a pic-



Now about the negative. Some folks are a bit concerned about the design of the hybrid. May I suggest in a world of performance parts I think it's safe to say that most companies out there are building parts that are designed to hold up in the conditions these shocks are intended for, remember they are made in America and not some obscure factory overseas where quality control is a mystery phrase. We have sold hundreds of sets of this particular design and have had not one complaint or return. In your case where you're planning on replacing springs and shocks and aren't going to flog a 4200 lb car on the autocross every weekend it's a no brainer to do a conversion like this. Now, if you were to decide to get hardcore with your driving habits, or if what others have said worries you, then Chris mentioned another alternative- the Chicane true coilover conversion. Our kit does require removing the original shock mount and welding in the bracket in the photo below. Once that's done you install a "true" coilover which means it has a non tapered spring and mounts to a shaft rather than in the stock position like the hybrid. This set up requires a little work so some folks that don't have the skills or tools to do it but still want to do their own work lean towards the hybrid. One thing we recommend for sure with the hybrid, we strongly suggest not installing them on factory stamped lower control arms, as that's a lot of pressure focused on the lower mount and a decent aftermarket lower arm will better handle the load.



As Lance said there is more than one way to skin a cat. The hard thing is picking out which knife to use. Here on this forum it's easy to get carried away buying what everyone says is the best, or it's easy to get bit by the bug and meaningfully get carried away to hit the track and tear up some corners. The bottom line is deciding what is best for you. I can't speak for you, but from what you said earlier and based on how the car is and will stay set up, I think a lot of parts some of us may have installed on our cars and/ or might recommend could be overkill for you. From our end of the woods the Pro Touring or Road Assault kit we sell sounds like a great upgrade for your needs, isn't getting you into crazy costs for top end super duper track parts, and is easy to install. We'd love to help you out if we can. Either way, you're doing the right thing by asking and I hope all the good responses here are helping you become more familiar with what works and how parts affect your car's driving characteristics. If you haven't already got it, I recommend Mark's book "How to Make a Muscle Car Handle" to start with to learn the basics of handling and suspension dynamics. That might help you make a more educated decision on what fills your car's needs.

[BMR Sales]

Thanks for the kind words…something very vey unexpected. Hits you hard.

Stuck here in the house in Atlanta in this DISASTER with the roads right now. Doing my research…then going to try to retrieve my car later today…it is not too far from home fortunately!

Interesting picture, might be something I would consider. I think you are talking about 2 separate things…the Viking Kit and something new from BMR. Is that right?

We do need to talk one on one but for now can you elaborate on the differences between the Viking and the new yet to be completed BMR kit. My major issue is securing the upper end of the Coil Over. I am hoping I can accomplish this as a bolt in but of course the "Dependability" / "Reliability" of that bolt in install is very important to me.

Hey Mully, some of the others have answered the Question, but - we offer Viking & QA1. Both offer a Hybrid Coil-Over that have a Stud Top Mount for the Shock and the Spring sits in the Upper Factory Seat. The Picture I showed is our New Coil-Over Conversion Kit that will be available soon that utilizes a True Viking Coil-Over.

What part of Atlanta do you live in? My Best Friend used to live in Decatur and my Son grew up in Peachtree City and is now at Georgia Southern in Statesboro. So I used to go up to Atlanta fairly often and know the Area pretty well.

T.C.

[Mully]

Hey Mully, some of the others have answered the Question, but - we offer Viking & QA1. Both offer a Hybrid Coil-Over that have a Stud Top Mount for the Shock and the Spring sits in the Upper Factory Seat. The Picture I showed is our New Coil-Over Conversion Kit that will be available soon that utilizes a True Viking Coil-Over.

What part of Atlanta do you live in? My Best Friend used to live in Decatur and my Son grew up in Peachtree City and is now at Georgia Southern in Statesboro. So I used to go up to Atlanta fairly often and know the Area pretty well.

T.C.

Roswell, you know Roswell: where all the Aliens are? Only difference is that we have Aliens building houses here in Roswell GA. as opposed to Aliens flying and crashing spaceships in Roswell NM. We put on quite a show this week with 1 or 2 inches of snow…did ya catch it on TV? As a former New Englander who can drive in bad weather this recent performance was embarrassing!!!!!!

I am learning a lot on this. Looks like you new kit also requires some surgery and welding as I would expect…correct?

[BMR Sales]

Roswell, you know Roswell: where all the Aliens are? Only difference is that we have Aliens building houses here in Roswell GA. as opposed to Aliens flying and crashing spaceships in Roswell NM. We put on quite a show this week with 1 or 2 inches of snow…did ya catch it on TV? As a former New Englander who can drive in bad weather this recent performance was embarrassing!!!!!!

I am learning a lot on this. Looks like you new kit also requires some surgery and welding as I would expect…correct?

LOL - I've been in Atlanta when it Snowed before - the place shut down, people sleeping in Bars etc

Yes, the Coil-Over Conversion Kits requires Minor Surgery!

T.C.