Big Block Swap!!!!

[69 Muscle]

I just want to start off by thanking everyone for helping me turn my 69 Camaro SS into the real pro touring car that I wanted to build.. I was just really not looking forward to spending the time it needed to do such a build. However due to the response of the previous thread Big Power I realize it is better to do what you want the first time and do it right and enjoy your investment for ever!!! So now instead of keeping the 350 bored .60 over I have decided to swap it for a big block. Hoping I can join the club and be welcomed by all.. So I am going to go with either a 454 or 502.. I believe this is the only way to get the true Horsepower and Torque I am looking for.
1. What changes need to be made to my 69 Camaro to make the big block fit? Any welding,cutting, rearranging etc..
2. What subframe should I go with Wayne Duo, Art Morrison, etc. and have any of you had any experience with these applications?
3. Or is the the original subframe okay?
4. What rear suspension set up, 4 Link? What brand recommendations?
5. Do I need to have a custom axle made?
6. Should I go with a Ford 9 inch?
7. Any good brake suggestions?
8. Will my existing M-21 Muncie close ratio transmission be okay with just the block power and no charger? I will add the procharger later and then also upgrade the tranny.
9. Finally would you guys upgrade to a power rack and pinion steering system? I have been looking at the Flamming River? Any suggestions.
Thanks again in advance for all your technical advice and help! Your opinion and experience in this situation is well valued and really appreciated. I am going to buy the motor as soon as I get enough responses on how this should be done right. I will respond to the threads as quickly as I can. Thanks Paul, Seattle Washington

[rockdogz]

Wow Paul, when you make a post, you really make a post!

Big block power.. now you're talkin'!

Be prepared for some push back in terms of pro-touring; some say a big block will make your car too nose heavy. Do what you want to do, I say!

1. None, those cars came equipped with big blocks factory! If you have an original A/C car (and plan to keep it) then you'll have a tiiight engine compartment. Also, be prepared for some potential interference problems with your wiper motor, unless you want the trick DSE unit.
2. I would choose Wayne Due if I had to do over again, but I went with Chassisworks - and it's a nice piece too, but more for the strip than track.
3. Original is fine, just clean it up, search the forum for gulstrand mod or look to DSE and others for front suspension pieces that will work well
4. Depends on what you want... Are you going just street or track/strip? Be prepared to lose your back seat with a 4 link, and to spend a lot of time getting it set up properly. I went with drop leafs to keep it simple.
5. Depends - do you want a lot of backspacing (deep dish wheels)? Are you mini-tubbing? Do you have a good rear to begin with?
6. Do you want the strongest economical rear end? (you don't have to say Ford any more - most aftermarket pieces are completely new and aren't Ford at all besides mimicking the size/design of the original piece)
7. Wilwood, Baer, SSBC...
8. You may have issues with this tranny if your car will have big rear meats and will hook up well... if you want to run it then make sure it's built well. Definitely has been done though.
9. I think a power rack is a great idea with the right brand - but again, depends on what your goal is. If you're just going to street the car and not track it, then why pay top dollar to get all the trick handling pieces... again, depends on what you want out of it. Take each decision individually and research it on the forum. Then ask lots of questions and be prepared to learn a lot from the great people here... Don't try to figure it all out at one time. Good luck, sounds like the beginning to a great project...

[69 Muscle]

Thanks Tom for your response.
My car is an original SS with no A/C. I plan on just driving the car around town and want the power to play with when I am driving it around.. You understand the obvious occasional burn out, the red light green light go, the get down and put in you in the back of your seat, enough power of the block that it is difficult to grab a 20 dollar bill of the dash when you are getting on the on ramp to the freeway.
Well enough of that, it sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what I am trying to do. I do not plan on taking the car to a track, maybe once in a blue moon just to see what it runs in the 1/4..
Exactly what type of front suspension changes need to be made so it does have good cornering with the added weight, and what needs to be done to support the extra weight? I was thinking QA 1 with coil overs but unsure of exactly which coil overs to go with.
I was hoping on keeping the back seat and not mini tubing the car unless it was needed. I was wanting to put the nicest, biggest meat I could in the back at the same time keeping the back seat. Was thinking of 18's in the back and 17's in the front. What is the backspacing for the rear if I do not mini tub and for the front?
Although mini tub is not out of the question because the DSE kit makes only minor mods to the rear and I get to keep the seat.
Also you hit the nail on the head I probably don't need the superman rear end, because the car is not a track car, just a fun driver in the evenings for running errands after work and on weekends. So Midrange rear end will probably be great. I have been considering a Mosier. What do you think ? Would I need a custom driveline when I change the rear axle? By the way the front subframe is original and the rear axle is also original. The rear suspension is the standard 4 leaf spring.
For the brakes I was considering the Wilwood,Baer, and SSBC. Do you think I should go power disc all the way around? I probably should just for the added stopping ability and because of the added weight from the big block. Right now it is just the stock power front and drum rear.
I was going to use the M-21 until it goes out.. How long do you think this will take? HA HA What would you go with for a replacement Richmond, or Tremec?
Thanks again for all your help and tech advice, As you can see I have never done a restoration that is so important. Thanks Paul

[chicane67]

1. What Tom said.
2. What Tom said.
3. It works just fine and you have choices: ATS AFX spindles/Landrum spring adjusters and control arm shafts, Global West or DSE control arms/KONI coil-overs and bushings and a mounting point re-location.
4. If you really want to I guess you could, but leafs are still an excellent option if you have the right spring built.
5. YES. 12 bolt or 9" your choice.
6. Its an option. If you dont already have a 12 bolt, the 9" would be an easy addition.
7. Give Touring Classics a good look..... or Baer or Willwood (in that order).
8. Uhm..... no. Think 4L60 or a 2004R for an auto or definately a T56 if your are looking at a manual.
9. The only choice for a rack and pinion is Unisteer. But my choice for a standard PS set-up would be a 600 box and some and a delphi pump.

10. Headers. Stahl or Lemons

11. Do your home work..... and I mean put some real effort into learning as much as you can before every single purchase.

11. TAKE YOUR TIME and keep the fun in it.

Contact Tyler at ATS for pictures of Chris' first gen we stuffed a big block, T56, Lemons headers, DSE control arms and KONI coil-overs, a custom 9" with leaf springs and a whole bunch of other stuff into. At least you can get an idea of what it takes to do all of this, because we doccumented the ENTIRE taredown and rebuild on film and we even have a few videos of its first drive.

We will be debuting this car at SEMA this year..........

[rob07002]

You won't loose your rear seat if you mini-tub, just trim some of the inner seat springs where they interfer with the tubs.

[69 Muscle]

Hey Chicane,
Thanks for your response! I do have a 12 bolt rear end.
It is a stock 12 bolt with posi trac.
I am really wanting to keep it a 4 speed so I figured the viper tranny was the way to go but was hoping to use the M-21 until it gave out.
Please keep all the advice and tech suggestins coming guys..
Thanks Paul

[chicane67]

12 bolt will require some addtional parts. I would consider Mark Williams 30 or 33 spline axles and the associated housing ends, a Williams 4340 billet pinion yolk, a USGear set (ratio of your choice, (3.73 with a 5/6 speed, 3.42 with a 4 speed for my choice)) and a rebuild of your factory Eaton with factory solid metal clutch pack.

The transmission is unfortunately, your weakest link, but it you were to have it professionally built...... it will last longer than a standard rebuild. I know a few people if you possibly need some insight on this one.....

The suspension is pretty much a no brainer..... drive train too.

I would pay peticular attention to the cooling system and brakes. Ron Davis, C&R, Griffen...etc. Id also run an Edelbrock H2o pump and a Lincon MarkVIII fan. The brakes gotta fit the wheels, so do the homework on what you want for wheels and make your brakes fit them. Some say that easy, but trust all of us..... it can turn into a headache..... because the wheel selection makes the car standout, but you have to have enough brake to slow down a chassis that makes the power a big block.

Think saftey, but think 'cool' saftey..... enough brake, 1/2" wheel studs, steering system components, seats and belts..... ya know that kinda stuff.