Ride quality - shocks

[Yelcamino]

Herb..



Is there a price difference in the smooth body HQ's and the threaded body HQ's?

Smooth body HQ - $175 each
2.0 threaded body HQ - $250 each (coil mounting kit included with shock)

[Yelcamino]

What effect does rebound have on ride quality? Given these aren't prone to packing.

Am I looking for a lower number?

As Britt stated, the rebound slows down the coil following compression. Keep in mind, a 300 lb/in coil won't need as much rebound force as a 1000 lb/in coil. That's where the HQ shines - you can adjust the rebound force to suit your coil rate and your personal preference.

At low velocities (1-3 in/sec) you want the rebound force to make a nice ramp up to 200-300 lbs or so. Of course the force should continue to increase as the velocity increases.

Like a stock chevelle we test with. . . Floated all over the road with worn out Monroe's. added RQ smooth bodies (and that was it) and it was controlled and predictable. Everyone voted the ride quality got better, even though the shocks were stiffer.

This Chevelle is bone stock with original rubber bushings, springs, etc. It was incredible how just installing a set of the RQ smooth bodies improved all aspects of the ride!

[CFster]

You must remember, after the coil over compresses it must then extend. You want very little compression damping. . . That's the job of the spring in ride quality. Once the spring is compressed it will force the shock apart. Rebound damping MUST slow this down. If it does not the suspension will continue to bounce.

Ride quality is odd. Sometimes the more force you have, the more control it provides, the better the car feels. Like a stock chevelle we test with. . . Floated all over the road with worn out Monroe's. added RQ smooth bodies (and that was it) and it was controlled and predictable. Everyone voted the ride quality got better, even though the shocks were stiffer.

Since ride quality is such a subjective beast I think we need to explain your current ride quality in terms of a new car. You say it's harsh or stiff. Is it "BMW M3" stiff, or is it F550 stiff? There's a huge difference between the two!

Not F550 stiff - we have those and nothing as stiff as one of them. Maybe M3 stiff.

Again, one it's past the initial movement it's fine - as in, the small bumps are the worst - just kind of hammers. Anything more than that is fine - I can go over rises and dips in the road and it's fine. The suspension moves, the car goes up and down it's fine.

[andrewb70]

Not F550 stiff - we have those and nothing as stiff as one of them. Maybe M3 stiff.

Again, one it's past the initial movement it's fine - as in, the small bumps are the worst - just kind of hammers. Anything more than that is fine - I can go over rises and dips in the road and it's fine. The suspension moves, the car goes up and down it's fine.

Just out of curiosity, do you know how much your wheels weigh?

Andrew

[CFster]

No. They're 18x8 and 18x9 Boyds PT-09s. I've just sent an email off to them.

I do have C6 ZO6 brakes though, which are not light...

[andrewb70]

No. They're 18x8 and 18x9 Boyds PT-09s. I've just sent an email off to them.

I do have C6 ZO6 brakes though, which are not light...

The reason I ask is because your car and mine are very similar (suspension and brake components). I have QA1 coilovers on the front with 550lb/in springs and my ride is definitely not jarring or "hammer" like. It is definitely firm, but my GF never complains, so that tells me the ride is not punishing. My shocks are set fairly firm.

The reason I ask about the wheel weight is that the unsprung wheel and tire weight make a big difference not only in handling, but also in the ride quality. I used to have a 1995 Miata and those cars are especially sensitive to unsprung weight. It had a set of heavy cast 16x7 wheels on it and Kony coilovers. The ride was very harsh. I always thought that it was because of the Konis. Then I installed the stock wheels and new stock size tires on it, and the handling AND the ride quality improved tremendously.

The wheels on my GTO are about 20-21 pounds in the front.

Andrew

[Nicks67GTO]

I'm going to be really forward and cut to the chase here so forgive me....

Is it really possible to have a shock that rides super smooth on the street and can get turned up to outperform the competition on the track? It seems like too much win. Like its too good to be true. Is ridetech suggesting that the HQ's will ride better on the street and do just as well on the track as the SA Varishocks?

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

Colin,
Experience tells us that the simplest solution is usually the best solution. With a low profile tire, the air pressure can make a HUGE difference so I would play around with that a bit. Does your car have a full, sound deadened interior or is it a stripped down streetfigher? Noise plays a huge part in our perception of ‘ride quality’ as well.

Do you have cut stock style coil-springs on the car to get it lower? If not, what springs do you have? I ask because you mentioned ‘wallowing’ which can mean many things to different people. To me it means your spring is too soft but other indicators, such as not hitting the bump stops and having a harsh ride, lead me toward the spring being too stiff.

Here’s an editorial that Chris Alston wrote a while back. CLICK HERE. It references both handling and straight line applications. Some good info, for instance “If your car rides like crap, it’s got the wrong spring in it! That’s why so many street machines ride like skateboards.” Also, THIS ARTICLE about coilover conversions has a lot of good tech info.

It’s not hitting the bump stops. As a matter of fact this car is raised way up from the stock SC&C settings.

If you’re not at the settings SC&C designated, it’s possible you’re topping out the shock. This can contribute to poor ride quality. Call Mark and go over your setup. He knows how to tune your configuration better than anyone else. If you’re running it different that he designed for you, then that’s issue #1.

What am I feeling when I hit a bump in the road? Is it too much compression, or not enough rebound? I would think you would want less stiff compression to absorb the bump.

Rebound typically has the largest effect on what we experience as 'ride quality.' The springs are pushing the wheel down into the ground and the car up into the air. They do most of the work when it comes to compression damping, providing they are the proper rate for your application. From there, the rebound keeps it from feeling ‘springy.’

As the compression doesn't really change with the Varishock QA1's adjustment, I don't see how adjusting that shock affects ride quality at all, with the exception of preventing "packing" over a series of bumps.

Actually, our compression resistance force changes significantly throughout the dampening range so I’m not sure if you’re referring to a QA1 or a VariShock. You don’t have to worry about ‘packing’ on these shocks. These are street cars and are not valved stiff enough for that to be an issue.

Incidentally, the shock dyno numbers you posted are not really comparable. The VariShock numbers in your original post are from a coil over body. The valving is slightly different for the 'bolt-in' shocks. Also, the valving is different between set valve, 1, 2, & 4 way adjustable as well. I don’t have a smooth body graph to share so we’ll just run with what you posted as it’s not drastically different. I’m pretty sure the ridetech info is also for a coilover as they don’t currently offer an HQ smooth body/adjustable ‘bolt-in’ style shock for your car. Herb is running a coilover body in his car. You could put those in, or you could spend an extra $48 to get a double adjustable VariShock. The Viking is a DA shock of unknown configuration.

For example, at 12 in/sec shaft speed (which I think is appropriate for a quick transition like a rut in the road):
The Varishocks are at 220lbs compression / 575lbs rebound full firm and 95lbs compression / 135lbs rebound on full soft.
The Ridetechs are at 155lbs compression / 640lbs rebound full firm and 125lbs compression / 340lbs rebound at full soft.
The Vikings are at 320lbs compression / 450lbs rebound full firm and 75lbs compression / 100lbs rebound at full soft.

That said, here's what I see when I look at the numbers you provided. The curve is important too, but this will do for now.
- VariShock - Primarily rebound dampening is controlled by the knob. Compression dampening follows slightly behind rebound damping.
- ridetech - Rebound dampening has narrowest range listed, has the most rebound damping at full soft and full stiff. Compression damping stays relatively static.
- Viking - DA Shock, can be tuned for softest rebound and stiffest compression of those listed. Has middle of the road rebound range. (Unless you compare it to the VariShock DA which can )

For reference, I have attached a copy of the VariShock coilover single and double adjustable coilover dyno graphs.

VariShockQ1_dyno.pdf VariShockQ2_dyno.pdf

[Yelcamino]

I’m pretty sure the ridetech info is also for a coilover as they don’t currently offer an HQ smooth body/adjustable ‘bolt-in’ style shock for your car. Herb is running a coilover body in his car.

Carl, you are correct, I have the coil-over body in my car. However, we do offer a bolt in smooth body rebound adjustable shock, known as the HQ. Stock should start arriving in September. As soon as we get them in, I'll do some dyno runs and post up graphs.

[Yelcamino]

I'm going to be really forward and cut to the chase here so forgive me....

Is it really possible to have a shock that rides super smooth on the street and can get turned up to outperform the competition on the track? It seems like too much win. Like its too good to be true. Is ridetech suggesting that the HQ's will ride better on the street and do just as well on the track as the SA Varishocks?

Yes it is possible to get the best of both worlds. However, none of the shocks in this discussion will fall out of the box optimized. That will require you to invest your time trying different settings under various conditions until you're satisfied with the result.

[CFster]

Colin,
Experience tells us that the simplest solution is usually the best solution. With a low profile tire, the air pressure can make a HUGE difference so I would play around with that a bit. Does your car have a full, sound deadened interior or is it a stripped down streetfigher? Noise plays a huge part in our perception of ‘ride quality’ as well.

Do you have cut stock style coil-springs on the car to get it lower? If not, what springs do you have? I ask because you mentioned ‘wallowing’ which can mean many things to different people. To me it means your spring is too soft but other indicators, such as not hitting the bump stops and having a harsh ride, lead me toward the spring being too stiff.

Here’s an editorial that Chris Alston wrote a while back. CLICK HERE. It references both handling and straight line applications. Some good info, for instance “If your car rides like crap, it’s got the wrong spring in it! That’s why so many street machines ride like skateboards.” Also, THIS ARTICLE about coilover conversions has a lot of good tech info.


If you’re not at the settings SC&C designated, it’s possible you’re topping out the shock. This can contribute to poor ride quality. Call Mark and go over your setup. He knows how to tune your configuration better than anyone else. If you’re running it different that he designed for you, then that’s issue #1.


Rebound typically has the largest effect on what we experience as 'ride quality.' The springs are pushing the wheel down into the ground and the car up into the air. They do most of the work when it comes to compression damping, providing they are the proper rate for your application. From there, the rebound keeps it from feeling ‘springy.’


Actually, our compression resistance force changes significantly throughout the dampening range so I’m not sure if you’re referring to a QA1 or a VariShock. You don’t have to worry about ‘packing’ on these shocks. These are street cars and are not valved stiff enough for that to be an issue.

Incidentally, the shock dyno numbers you posted are not really comparable. The VariShock numbers in your original post are from a coil over body. The valving is slightly different for the 'bolt-in' shocks. Also, the valving is different between set valve, 1, 2, & 4 way adjustable as well. I don’t have a smooth body graph to share so we’ll just run with what you posted as it’s not drastically different. I’m pretty sure the ridetech info is also for a coilover as they don’t currently offer an HQ smooth body/adjustable ‘bolt-in’ style shock for your car. Herb is running a coilover body in his car. You could put those in, or you could spend an extra $48 to get a double adjustable VariShock. The Viking is a DA shock of unknown configuration.



That said, here's what I see when I look at the numbers you provided. The curve is important too, but this will do for now.
- VariShock - Primarily rebound dampening is controlled by the knob. Compression dampening follows slightly behind rebound damping.
- ridetech - Rebound dampening has narrowest range listed, has the most rebound damping at full soft and full stiff. Compression damping stays relatively static.
- Viking - DA Shock, can be tuned for softest rebound and stiffest compression of those listed. Has middle of the road rebound range. (Unless you compare it to the VariShock DA which can )

For reference, I have attached a copy of the VariShock coilover single and double adjustable coilover dyno graphs.

VariShockQ1_dyno.pdf VariShockQ2_dyno.pdf

Carl,

I'm running the SPC springs that Mark sold me with my AFX kit. They haven't been altered in any way. I'm also running spacers that he gave me, so I'm sure if there were any travel issues he would have made me aware of it.

The car is dynomatted on the floor and trunk. Full interior.

What I mean by wallowing is if I turn my shocks down to zero then yes it will bottom out and is generally scary during weight transfer and going around corners.

What I find interesting about the dyno charts you posted is the rebound range is virtually the same but the compression force is significantly higher on the Q2s. I'm not sure how the Q2s would help in my situation as I'm experiencing more of a harsh compression event.

[CFster]

Also, while looking at the charts (that I have), it appears the Varishocks ramp up quicker. Meaning, while I was referring to a fast piston velocity, obviously an acceleration took place, so is accurate to say your shocks have a firmer initial movement or (head) to them?

[rustomatic]

To the original poster: Have you checked your front suspension for bind? Having obsessed over this myself recently (1963 Falcon), my most recent changes have finally gotten rid of the the jarring/shudder that once seemed ever-present in every early Mustang I ever had (about six). Two main elements seemed to make the greatest difference: control arms/spring saddles with bearings in them, plus Koni shocks. The Konis (classics--compress and twist to adjust) are a huge pain to adjust, but it only seems to take one or two adjustments past the baseline to get the sweet spot. Konis do about the opposite of what KYBs seem to do; the adjustments stress rebound damping long before compression stiffens up. This makes all the difference in the world when trying to combine ride quality with performance.

My car sits pretty low, to the point where I've had to raise bump stops (and shock travel, to a lesser extent) on the front end 2-3 inches; in the rear, I actually had to recently raise the rear of my driveshaft/transmission tunnel nearly three inches. I still have good travel, however. With the right combo, you can still get a very good ride at a low height, and slam through turns confidently. I recently laughed myself silly with an M3 in my rear view...

At any rate, my normal drive, from my driveway, consists of ten miles of twisties and two bridges (not the smoothest joints). The comfort of my suspension has been largely accidental, but at the peak of my Falcon's development, it has oddly reached its most comfortable ride quality with peak handling (to date)...

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

Carl,
What I find interesting about the dyno charts you posted is the rebound range is virtually the same but the compression force is significantly higher on the Q2s. I'm not sure how the Q2s would help in my situation as I'm experiencing more of a harsh compression event.

Yes, the QS2 has a lot more available compression dampening. That doesn't mean you have to use all of it. The benefit of the double adjustable is that you can independently control the restistance force. The compression/bump is not tied to the extension/rebound. The DA shock was designed with more available compression because of this. It would be extremely unlikely that anyone would run both knobs a full 16 clicks tight.

Likewise, running a QS2 full soft on both paths would cause the car to 'wallow' as the valving is essentially turned off. You would basically be running on just the springs. What you are descibing to me sounds like a spring rate issue but could be any number of issues.

In the end, if you're having ride quality issues you need to talk to the guy who configured your package. You have our shock, but not springs, spindles, or a-arms that we supply; all of which matters in the overall setup. Mark Savitske is one of our most intelligent dealers, has written an excellent book on suspension tuning, and is the best person qualified to discuss his setup.

When you made your purchase, SC&C gave you very specific settings to use, along with specific ride height requirements. Go back to the original settings and set-up and start logging data about what setting you used and how the car responds, etc. We can then talk about how to make adjustments to create the ride and performance you want.

[Henesian]

To the original poster: Have you checked your front suspension for bind? Having obsessed over this myself recently (1963 Falcon), my most recent changes have finally gotten rid of the the jarring/shudder that once seemed ever-present in every early Mustang I ever had (about six). Two main elements seemed to make the greatest difference: control arms/spring saddles with bearings in them, plus Koni shocks. The Konis (classics--compress and twist to adjust) are a huge pain to adjust, but it only seems to take one or two adjustments past the baseline to get the sweet spot. Konis do about the opposite of what KYBs seem to do; the adjustments stress rebound damping long before compression stiffens up. This makes all the difference in the world when trying to combine ride quality with performance.

My car sits pretty low, to the point where I've had to raise bump stops (and shock travel, to a lesser extent) on the front end 2-3 inches; in the rear, I actually had to recently raise the rear of my driveshaft/transmission tunnel nearly three inches. I still have good travel, however. With the right combo, you can still get a very good ride at a low height, and slam through turns confidently. I recently laughed myself silly with an M3 in my rear view...

At any rate, my normal drive, from my driveway, consists of ten miles of twisties and two bridges (not the smoothest joints). The comfort of my suspension has been largely accidental, but at the peak of my Falcon's development, it has oddly reached its most comfortable ride quality with peak handling (to date)...

I had the exact same experience with Koni shocks vs KYB shocks. But my set are original 30 year old red Special D's. Just wanted to 2nd all of what you said.

[Marcus SC&C]

Collin, you`re getting your head all wrapped up in dyno numbers. Let`s get practical, you`re not going to use the softest end of the adjustment range in any Varishock with your application. You`ve already noticed that range is too soft (as it should be), so who has the softest ultimate numbers is academic. Throughout this whole thread you have never mentioned what shock settings you are actually using. What are the shocks set at currently? You mentioned that you have set them so that the car is too soft and begins to wallow, what settings was that. You mentioned that set firmer the car handles well but fells more harsh. At what setting did that take place?
Ride quality involves a great many things besides the shocks and the devils as I said before is always in the details. Just because you`re focusing on the shocks doesn`t make them the issue. Cars that are initially harsh but smooth out throughout their travel (as you mentioned yours does) always suggest to me that something in the systems in having to reach an excessively high break free torque before it begins to move. One common cause of this is poly bushings that weren`t properly lubricated or bushings that have been over tightened to the point of binding. The back end of the rear trailing arms is a common location for this. Other things can do it as well. Tire pressure ,as mentioned can have a large effect on ride quality, especially with low profile tires. The tire type can make a huge difference, if you`re running y speed rated supercar tires that were never designed with ride quality in mind, then the ride quality of you car will suffer. If you`re trying to build a touring cruiser you would want to look toward the tires used on European sedans not Lambos. Etc. etc. As you know all of our clients are welcome to call for a detailed one on one consultation at any time. But we can`t help much if you don`t call.

[andrewb70]

I'll throw another data point out there. I just swapped tires on my GTO. I was running the Falken RT 615s in 255/40-18 in the front and 295/40-18 in the rear. I swapped to the new BFG Rivals, with 275/35-18 in the front and 295/35-18 in the rear. We set the new tire pressure at 38 in the front and 36 in the rear. The front wheel were widened from 8" to 9.5".

The Falkens were 28lb front and 33lbs in the rear.

The Rivals are 27lb front and 29lbs in the rear.

With the wider front wheels, the weight might be a wash. However, in the rear I lost 8lb of unsprung weight. That seems like a lot.

The ride quality with the new tires are is better than with the old tires.

Andrew

[Bryce]

thanks Andrew. Any noticeable reduction in sidewall stiffness with the lower weight?

[CFster]

Collin, you`re getting your head all wrapped up in dyno numbers. Let`s get practical, you`re not going to use the softest end of the adjustment range in any Varishock with your application. You`ve already noticed that range is too soft (as it should be), so who has the softest ultimate numbers is academic. Throughout this whole thread you have never mentioned what shock settings you are actually using. What are the shocks set at currently? You mentioned that you have set them so that the car is too soft and begins to wallow, what settings was that. You mentioned that set firmer the car handles well but fells more harsh. At what setting did that take place?
Ride quality involves a great many things besides the shocks and the devils as I said before is always in the details. Just because you`re focusing on the shocks doesn`t make them the issue. Cars that are initially harsh but smooth out throughout their travel (as you mentioned yours does) always suggest to me that something in the systems in having to reach an excessively high break free torque before it begins to move. One common cause of this is poly bushings that weren`t properly lubricated or bushings that have been over tightened to the point of binding. The back end of the rear trailing arms is a common location for this. Other things can do it as well. Tire pressure ,as mentioned can have a large effect on ride quality, especially with low profile tires. The tire type can make a huge difference, if you`re running y speed rated supercar tires that were never designed with ride quality in mind, then the ride quality of you car will suffer. If you`re trying to build a touring cruiser you would want to look toward the tires used on European sedans not Lambos. Etc. etc. As you know all of our clients are welcome to call for a detailed one on one consultation at any time. But we can`t help much if you don`t call.

The current settings are 6 and 5. Any less than that and I'm unhappy with the handling. I don't think it's a break free issue. As in, if I set the shocks to 3 I can easily bounce either end of the car up and down by hand. There doesn't appear to be anything binding.

I run 30psi tire pressure. I'm currently running Continental DWS's, which can be classified as a European tire. Initially I had Bridgestone RE050's, and while they stuck like a mother they rode like crap. I understand there are other options, but I refuse to put a Japenese tire on this car.

All I'm looking for is input from people who have maybe tried different types of shocks. This car may be doing some long "tours" and I'm just trying to maximize ride quality. I understand this is a 46 year old car so there will be sacrifices.

[alocker]

I went from an American 15 (at least the brand is American) to a Japanese 18 and surprisingly the ride quality improved considerably. Just curious why no Japanese tires?