cheap g-body handling tricks?

[cheaperdealer]

I am thinking about building a Buick Regal for the $2009 grassroots challenge.I have a limited buget.Will be running a 500caddy/400th. I was told 70-81 lower f-body a-arms[swap left for right,right for left]would help the bad geometry,but cant find any info on that. As for the rear,I was thinking about the truck arm setup.
Does any body have any advice?

[olds87]

I will check out SC&C, it one of the links on the right and Mark have stuff in your price range I believe.

[DAK]

I am thinking about building a Buick Regal for the $2009 grassroots challenge.I have a limited buget.Will be running a 500caddy/400th. I was told 70-81 lower f-body a-arms[swap left for right,right for left]would help the bad geometry,but cant find any info on that. As for the rear,I was thinking about the truck arm setup.
Does any body have any advice?

Sounds like alot a ton of fun! I would love to try something like that.
2nd gen f-body lower a-arms would do you no good at all. I wouldnt count on them even fitting a g-body. As for the truck arm suspension I would suggest against it. Factory 4 link with arms with spherical rod ends would way less complicated and really tighten up the rear.

I have some ideas which I have done on my own car. All of which was tight budgeted requiring fabrication making something out of junk.

I will check out SC&C, it one of the links on the right and Mark have stuff in your price range I believe.

I believe the challenge is to spend $xxxx amount on the whole car not just the suspension.

[T-CHRGD]

Used is always good.
I would have a set of hotchkis rear upper and lower trailing arms available sometime next week. I also have a F-body hollow 36mm front swaybar, or a set of Suspension Techniques swaybars 1 3/8" front (now at the powdercoater being refurbished) and a New rear (1") bar. All for about half the cost of new.

[cheaperdealer]

From what I have read about the truck arm set up,it seems to be the way to go. I will be pulling the body off the frame,so it won't be that much work. Plus it will allow me to swap the rearend alot easyer.It's the same set up that nascar uses.
$2009 bucks is the budget. I can sell parts from the car and use that towards the cost,but that is limited to $1004.00.That can up the total to $3013.00.
I have a set of Hotchkis uppur a-arms for a g-body,and sway bars from a Monte SS.

[dusterbd13]

im doing a g-body based vehicle for the '09 challenge as well.

couple of things:
AFCO makes steel LCA bushings.
UB machine makes tubulat upper and lower control arms. im currently working with them on doing a set specifically for the tall ball joint conversions.

G-bodies have a lot opf frame flex. elimiate as much as you can. tube steel and a welder are your friends.

lastly, you can get really good bilsteins to fit teh front from 96-up blazer 4 door, 2wd. bolt right in.

Hope that helps.

Michael

[jackfrost]

also, I know the b-body spindle swap isn't great for bumpsteer, but if you hunt for the parts you can get 12" brakes for pretty cheap. esp. if you already have the upper arms.

definitely box the frame and the rear control arms, if you're re-using the stock ones.

[Marcus SC&C]

Guys, if you want to win you`ll need to make up for a lot of pitfalls in the factory suspension. Analyze the car front to back and locate it`s shortcomings. Then identify ways to correct them and improve it in general. THEN do it to budget. Throwing a bunch of parts at the car just because they`re cheap is going to end up a mismatched mess. I`d be happy to help you guys out with tech and a few key parts is you like. Mark SC&C

[cheaperdealer]

Hey Marcus, where should I start? I can start boxing in the frame,but then what? Is there any thing else on the chassie that needs attenion? What is your thoughts on the truck arm setup. Im new to making a car handle.

[Marcus SC&C]

There`s way too much to cover here in internet "Post it note" format but give me a call and I`ll be happy to go over it all with you.
To summarize briefly, the front end is your biggest stumbling block. The geometry is godawful and if you don`t fix it you`ll have to fight it every step of the way. The camber curves are literally backward, bumpsteer is really bad and the roll center is much too low and migrates like crazy. The B spindles help the first and last things but make the middle one twice as bad and also change the track width and add a lot of weight. The best/cheapest solution is our tall ball joints (we`ll have an X-tall Plus Series G body upper out soon too). If our matching arms won`t fit the budget (although they`re less than most of our competition) you can use the disposable circle track arms. They won`t hold up long term and will have more NVH but they`ll do for what you`re doing. I can help you select the right length and offset. This front end geometry fix will be the single biggest performance improvement you make to the car. In the rear aftermarket arms are fine/good. With the Hotchkis arms run bearings on the axle side (Chassisworks or Wolff) to help reduce non linear binding which will make the car harder to drive. Again, not something I`d recomend for normal street use but for your application go for it. Or sell the uppers and replace with Edelbrocks with the greasable pivot balls. Currecttrac would be better but are more expensive. Choose swaybars based on the cars needs. With improved front end geometry you won`t need or want a huge front bar unless you`re running an unusually high rate rear bar. Our new ProTouring rear bar would be awesome but may be out of the limited budget. Yes, you`ll almost certainly want a rear bar on a G body. The truck arms suspension is used by NASCAR for one reason and one only. They`re required to run it. It`s okay but doesn`t offer anything you can`t get with simple mods on the factory 4 link and the money and time is much better spent on the front suspension. Our racer clients have proven that time and time again. If you want to get trick in the back check out our G body watts link,maybe buy the bellcrank from us and fab the rest to keep the price down but it`s a great mod. It gives the car a smooth linear feel that makes it super easy to drive fast. Chassis rigidity is also a big issue for G bodys. For your application box the frame,triangulate the front end (look at our HD chassis brace for ideas) and add a crossmember behind the rear axle somewhere. A cage or at least bar with side bars is not a bad idea at all.
For your application (uber cheap street legal race car) ride quality is a non issue so race springs (Speedway,Hypercoil etc.) in the 850lb/in front and 200lb/in rear range along with some cheap street stock shocks should get the job done. It won`t be a pleasant ride but i twill yield great performance. If you plan to drive the car on the street after the challenge you might try Moog 5660/5413 springs. Don`t be suprised if you have to trim the fronts to get the ride height where you want it. The quality of those isn`t near as good (being kind here!) as say Hotchkis or SPC springs but they are at least cheap. Mark SC&C

[cheaperdealer]

Thanks Marcus. I've got a starting point and parts list now. Is there any way to correct the bumpsteer with the b-body swap? Do the 2nd gen f-body spindles have the same problems?

[Marcus SC&C]

No,there`s not. If there was people would have been using it for years already. Basically the pivot of the tie rod end and the steering arms need to occupy the same space at the same time. Bottom line, they just don`t fit properly. Even if you could fix that issue you`d still have the others to contend with. Yes, 2nd Gen spindles have the same issues. Same spindle except for the brake brackets. Mark SC&C

[DAK]

Is there any way to correct the bumpsteer with the b-body swap?

Lower the inner tierod.



Warning if you do chicken **** welding don't try this at home.

[Marcus SC&C]

People have tried that but it`s not even legal to weld on steering parts in most states. For good reason too,if that little weld breaks or fatigues over time fails...you crash. Crashing`s bad. Even if it were easy to fix the bumpsteer they`re still heavy,limit tie rod to wheel clearance and backspacing, use old marginally effective brakes, change the track width etc. Waste of time,effort and money when much better solutuions are so readily available. Mark SC&C

[cheaperdealer]

I was looking at the springs and upper A-arms that Speedway Motors,what length Arms do I need,and spring height ? Now about the rear axle mounting points. Would it help if the upper arms are raised and lower arms are lowered?

[Marcus SC&C]

That`s the rub with ordering race car parts. It`s all on you to know what your car needs... As far as the rear suspension goes it depends on what dynamic changes you`re looking for. The mods you`re suggesting may improve straight line traction but will cause roll center and roll steer issues when cornering. Mark SC&C

[Tony_SS]

A while back I got a set of tubular upper and lower A-arms on a trade. I installed them and went to get an alignment. The guys at the shop could not get it straight and I drove home with a stack of shims.

After that little exercise I called Marcus and went with a Stage 1: SPC adjustable arms and a tall upper ball joint. Installed them withOUT shims and took it to a guy who knew what he was doing. He lined everything up according to the specs supplied by Marcus.

It was like driving home a new car. I couldn't be happier with everything including the service from SC&C. No I'm not getting any kickbacks, just want to say a public thanks to Marcus.

I like to try to do things on a budget but sometimes that ends up costing more money than paying right up front to do it right. I think that's the case with these B-body, Speedway, swaps/parts.

[Norm Peterson]

I think you'll want to replace the aging rubber body mount bushings with something firmer, and make sure that you have all of the mounts in place (not all A/G bodies got bushings in all positions, probably for "soft ride" reasons). Poly mounts are available, but you can probably work something up even cheaper.

What are you going to do for a rear axle? Most of these cars got the corporate 7.5", with open diff and IIRC 26 spline axle shafts. However, the 7.625" 3rd (and 4th?) Gen F-body differentials will fit. You're asking a lot of it either way, though.

Just to echo what Marcus said, the Moog 5660/5413 is entirely streetable, but a bit soft for auto-X and the 5413's may eventually require some shimming for height. Rear axle rollsteer is enough to make it hate slaloms even after you get it to do sweepers decently. However, LCA relo brackets can be used to reduce the rollsteer and increase the anti-squat, both of which should help your effort if you do end up just modifying the OE rear suspension instead of swapping it out entirely.

Below is a link to a picture of my Malibu at one of its last events. Here's the chassis stuff, best as I can remember off the top of my head.

Moog 5660/5413
OE F41 32mm/22mm sta-bars
poly bar bushings and endlinks up front
poly body bushings
poly front control arm bushings
front camber more than -2°
about -0.5° rear camber (that's the way it was and I didn't touch it, honest)
OE 4-link rear suspension with some user-modified poly bushings in the LCAs only
Bilsteins, 2WD S10 front pieces IIRC
factory front frame triangulation
huge added front crossmember (3x3x1/8)
15 x 8.5
225/60-15


https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/at...8&d=1220033859


Norm

[turboregal]

Anything to tighten the frame helps, If you look on postons or kirbans website they both sell bracing for behind the rear seat skip that. I took 1/2" conduit and built my own for less than $10. Then after that I built front braces, also on the website, out of 3/4" conduit for like $15. My car is a t-top model and the difference was noticable, less rattles and alot less drift?hop?wander in the steering!

[79T/Aman]

sorry not trying to throw stones but recomending using conduit as structural frame bracing is not right, conduit is made specifically to be able to be bent by hand AND retain the bent shape.