Lower Control Arm Re-engineer

[AintQik]

Ok. Been out for a while (in military). Time to get back on the 67 Camaro. For 6+ months I have been trying to figure out why I am bottoming out the coil overs. QA1, 550# springs. I have no idea, neither does anyone else. I friggin give up. Well, almost.

In an effort to get my shock travel back I am thinking about lowering the pocket in the lower arm 2" I was going to use a 4" diam pipe 2" tall, and weld the exisiting shock mount plate to the bottom side and weld that to the control arm. I have to make sure I'll have clearance throughout the arm movement, I don't want to hit the shock body on the wall of the pipe. I have also been thinking about making a 2" box instead of the pipe to give me more clearance, but that would be way more work (but maybe necessary).

If anyone can point me to some threads, or ideas please do. I'm just out of options here.

You guys are going to have to trust me that I have exhausted every possible option of easy/ususal culprits. Everything checks out although there is no reason the car sits so high and requires the coil over to be dropped to the point of its extreme. Believe me, I have been going over this with Global engineers, QA1, Frank, and anybody who will listen. I'm done and need to get rolling. I'm open to options and welcome all opinions.

Here is about where I want it to sit, it actually need to go a hair lower. At this point the shock is not in a usable range.

[dhutton]

What you are talking about sounds like the SPC lower arms. Take a look for pics on SCandC.com

[AintQik]

Yes, that is what I'm trying to do with my Global West Arms.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

RJ - You and I spoke last when you went through the wheel centering/steering lock issue. Are both these issues connected? I think GW is a great company, but man you're jumping through too many hoops to solve this problem. What did GW say?

[AintQik]

Ron, I can't run the suggested caster I will have to just get it as close as possible and still clear the fender. Global has done everything they can, they really need to see the car I suppose. I've pretty much given up at this point and will start fabbing stuff to make it work. There is no reason it should be off, just is what it is. I haven't even got to the rear yet ;) It needs a 3" block to be at ride height. That's with DSE 3" drop leafs. I must have the off road version of the Camaro. This bothers the ever living piss out of me. But, I know I'm a pretty smart guy, I have pretty smart friends, and the car has been at some pretty smart shops and there is just no explanation. So, I gotta chop, fix and move on before I get deployed again.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Dude - I know you're smart and have a pretty good team. All this is way over the top, although we do have to engineer our way through some stuff on these cars. Between your front and rear, sounds really screwy. Keep me (us) posted....

[67speedfreak]

Have you considered drop spindles to get the front down lower. ATS makes a nice spindle with a one inch drop they also offer a tall spindle to help correct the 1st gen geometry.

air ride also offers a 2in drop but you have to be carefull with a 2 inch because you can run into outer tie rod clearance issues. If your running 18" hoops the 2" may work for you.

Brian

[AintQik]

Brian,
You aren't going to believe this but I am running 2" drop spindles just to get it where it is. I wanted to run standard spindle but the thing sat way too high. The wheel barely clears but it does, and I will shave a bit of the tie rod to get some more wiggle room.

With a standard spindle the shock bottoms out hard. It has about .5" of deflection at the pictured ride height. With the 2" spindle I gain 2" of shock travel, but 2.5" of shock travel is probably not enough hence the dropped pocket idea. That will also allow me to run a less compressed spring.

Yes, I want to shoot myself in the face at this point. However, I'm a persistant *******.

[mike@schwartzperformance]

RJ, can you call me? I might have an idea.

[AintQik]

Will do Mike. Thanks.

[67speedfreak]

Wow very strange . Do you have pictures of your front suspension setup ?

[ITLBTU]

Just throwing this out... maybe I'm clueless.... are the rubber subframe bushings installed correctly? Maybe you have the incorrect bushings if you put solid ones in.... just a thought...

[AintQik]

Aluminum subframe bushings. Checked subframe measurements against stock and all the same. I appreciate the inputs, I'll check any sugesstion.
Also want to plug Mike at Schwartz. Good dude who took the time to listen and offer suggestions. Unfortunately I baffled him as well lol. We'll get it.

[Bryce]

Where is the car located? If its in socal I will come take a look.

Looking from the front what is the angle of the LCA?

[barraza]

Brian,

It has about .5" of deflection at the pictured ride height. With the 2" spindle I gain 2" of shock travel, but 2.5" of shock travel is probably not enough hence the dropped pocket idea. That will also allow me to run a less compressed spring.

You wont find any camaro with 2.5 inches of travel before the bumpstop, and there is no reason to have that much. Remember that the wheel will move more than the distance the shock travels. It would be great to have 3 inches of wheel up travel (compression), but from a practical point of view, the car will never sit the way you want it to with that much travel. 67-68's have a very narrow range of tire sizes and suspension setups that actually look good because of the wheelwell shape and the inner fender. To get the look you want, you probably need a shorter shock body, and a good bumpstop to keep tire out of the fender before max compression.

Start with the basics. Measure your shock and spring lengths with weight on the car. Support the car in the air and remove the spring from the shock body. Put the wheel back on and raise it as far as you want and do some measuring. It will be easy to find the extremes of compression travel into the wheelwell, and the ride height you want. My guess is you will end up with less than 2" of WHEEL uptravel available. Measure the shock lengths at those settings and spring length from top to the adjusting collar. Look in the shock catalogs and pick the combination of shock length and spring length you need.

[AintQik]

After screwing around this afternoon I found a littlle more information. With the 2" drop spindle The shock is a usable position at ride height. The spring will not allow me to get it to that height however. So, I will need to find the sweet spot for a spring. The cut 550# does not do it. I need to compress it on the shock body to get it to ride height, and when I do there is zero movement. I can jump up and down on the nose and its hard as a rock.

The tire hits everywhere at ride height. At the bottom end, where the shock is extended with no weight on the car the wheel clears. As I move the wheel up in the wheel well, the wheel travels backwards and will hit the rear arch of the fender and inner wheel well at the desired ride height. The tire also hits the top of the fender at the desired height. So, unless I can get really creative with my alignment I'm screwed.

I checked the backspace on the wheel and it is 4 7/8ths. With the Wilwood hubs its obviosuly a little too little on the 8.5 inch wheel. Before you ask I can not get another wheel. They are no longer produced. I have a 235 tire on it, I guess I can try a 225 but its only goign to fix the top rub, not the back of the arch rub.

I think it would be wise to leave the spring for last and work on the clearance issues. The car is not really drivable or trailerable so I think some proper alignment tools are in order. Before I go off half cocked I need to set up and try some new alginment specs and go from there. If I cant get it to clear the spring issue matters not. I suppose I could introduce some camber and tip the top of the tire in. That may do it, or combined with a 225 tire it may do it. I just don't feel like making 30 trips to an alignment shop and pay $80 each time. I'm assuming you can get reasonably close at home with a digital gauge. I have a feeling I'm going to grow to hate spacers, but hell it can't get much worse.

Someone actually suggested I cut the rear arch of my fender off. I'm not quite ready for that yet. Any suggestions on the DIY alignment stuff would be helpful. I'm hoping I can get some decent numbers without turntables and all that crap. I want to scream words that start with "f". FITZSIMMONS!!!!!!! Somehow that did not make me feel any better about this nightmare.

[barraza]

For starters, a 8.5 in wheel with 4 7/8 backspacing just ain't gonna work, unless you use a really short tire. It isn't always obvious, but the clearance at the two places you mention is damn small, and not enough offset makes it worse. Aftermarket upper control arms with more built in caster push the top of the spindle rearwards which moves the tire just enough to cause a problem also.

When you say the spring won't let you get to the ride height you want, do you mean the shock body has run out of adjustment, or the spring is coil bound?

You may be able to fudge the clearance at the back of the wheelwell a little by moving the subframe forward a fraction. The top of the inner fender can be cutout if there is no other alternative.

[Rod]

pull the wheels off and give us pictures please, with the suspension compressed like it would be sitting on its wheels, that will help

[AintQik]

My fear is that you are right and that wheel won't work. I bought them from a very reputable shop that has done thousands of 1st gen builds and that was the wheel they recommended for my particular set up. Unfortunately, the wheel is no longer produced. I might be able to get Forgeline to rehoop it, but the center determines the backspace and I think I am hosed.

I took a short video of the suspension travel and I will post that tonight with some pictures.


Looking at the front of the car the lower control arms are parallel with the ground at ride height.

The shock is fine now, the spring is just too tall. With the 10" spring, the car sits too high on every adjustment. I had a set of 550# springs and I cut them to 7 3/4" and the car sits right, but only with the spring compressed too much with the coil over collars. Its an iron headed big block. I dunno. Option 2 is to cut the top of the subframe off and get a true coil over kit in there like speedtechs.

But, I will still have to buy new wheels unless my prayers are answered and tiny suspension fairies float down and magically solve my problems. I have a feeling I dropped a bunch of coin on wheels that are useless to me.

Anybody know if changing the hub is an option to get a little more wiggle room in the backspacing? I'm grasping at straws here. I currently have Wilwood 12" rotors. Can I change spindles or hubs to gain anything?

[Bryce]

The early mustang wilwood kits pushed the wheel put about 3/8". Maybe the same with camaros? That could be why the wheel backspace is wrong?