Project BLUEprint, 1965 Falcon

[Bjkadron]

Sounds like a good plan. With that experience you should get an interview anywhere.

At my college we had a class where we got use hand mills and lathes, with a few CNC stuff. That was my favorite class.

Yeah I had that last semester.. It was a blast! Also, now I am a "certified machinist" and can use all their Shop any time their isn't a class in there. I'll be doing the CNC Programming class the spring semester so I should be able to make some cool stuff!

[Bryce]

Yeah I had that last semester.. It was a blast! Also, now I am a "certified machinist" and can use all their Shop any time their isn't a class in there. I'll be doing the CNC Programming class the spring semester so I should be able to make some cool stuff!

That is awesome. You will be able to build some awesome things.

[Bryce]

I got my tires mounted at driverz inc yesterday. I wish I got a picture of Jon working on my wheels. He had his new snapon machines and those are awesome.

I will post a picture later today of the front wheel on the car.

[Bryce]

I got a lot of work done yesterday.

Bell crank is complete. The watts cradle is ready to be welded. I cut out the third think chassis mount. Things are coming along nicely now!

Once I get the leafs springs out the rear wheels can go in.

[PhillipM]

I got my tires mounted at driverz inc yesterday. I wish I got a picture of Jon working on my wheels. He had his new snapon machines and those are awesome.

I will post a picture later today of the front wheel on the car.

Man, Jon is LEGIT these days... SnapOn!

[Bryce]

Man, Jon is LEGIT these days... SnapOn!

Jon is the man. I drive 150 miles just to have him mount my tires.

[srh3trinity]

Where are the pics? I am anxious to see the wheels on your car. It should look great with some more tire underneath it too. Throw us a bone.

[Bryce]

Stephen,

The pictures will be up later. But the wheel/tires look awesome!!

[Matt@BOS]

Thanks Matt, you are a younger guy too right?

I guess I am an enginerd (engineer + nerd)

I cant wait to drive the falcon either. I plan on having the car ready by RTTC. and GG in april for sure. It might not be painted but it will have a finished suspension under it but it will have an automatic.

Yeah, I'm one of the younger guys. I have to say though, this community is really cool because age seems to be treated as a non-issue around here.

Also, don't worry about the automatic transmission. I don't mean to offend anyone on here, but it seems like at least half the people at events (myself included) had no idea how to effectively launch their manual trans cars on the autocross. Seemed like the the auto guys had better starts overall. I don't think automatic transmissions are as much of a limiting factor as people think. On the road course a driver who can hold a good line, and is familiar with his car will probably run faster in a single gear than someone who is shifting but unfamiliar with his car/track.

Matt

[Bryce]

Yeah, I'm one of the younger guys. I have to say though, this community is really cool because age seems to be treated as a non-issue around here.

Also, don't worry about the automatic transmission. I don't mean to offend anyone on here, but it seems like at least half the people at events (myself included) had no idea how to effectively launch their manual trans cars on the autocross. Seemed like the the auto guys had better starts overall. I don't think automatic transmissions are as much of a limiting factor as people think. On the road course a driver who can hold a good line, and is familiar with his car will probably run faster in a single gear than someone who is shifting but unfamiliar with his car/track.

Matt

Good point Matt. That got me thinking. I think I can spend $3-4K in a better place at this point. This will be the first iteration of the falcon.

[fordsbyjay]

I used to have an 85 Capri Rs and did some auto crossing back in the day and I don't know why everyone rags on the automatic. I found with the T5 you were either driving around at your redline or if you shifted to the next gear 2 seconds later you had to shift back down again. An automatic seemed more practical to me because you can shift up and down so fast in the short intervals of an auto X track.

[Flash68]

Yeah, I'm one of the younger guys. I have to say though, this community is really cool because age seems to be treated as a non-issue around here.

Also, don't worry about the automatic transmission. I don't mean to offend anyone on here, but it seems like at least half the people at events (myself included) had no idea how to effectively launch their manual trans cars on the autocross. Seemed like the the auto guys had better starts overall.
Matt

I agree Matt, especially after watching a lot of the guys at Optima launch their manual cars for both the autoX and the speed-stop challenge. But hey, it's def not an easy thing to do even for a great driver -- launch a 500, 600, 700+ hp car with a big cam and 200+ treadwear tires.

Auto trans might make for a smoother and quicker launch or time, but it sure ain't as fun as rowing those gears.

[Bryce]

I guess we will see how it works in my car. You guys are giving me a confidence boost.

[LowFast]

Need pictures of those sweet wheels mounted. I need Falcon inspiration!

[Bryce]

I have been too busy working on the car to post pictures. I worked until 9 last night making the third link chassis mount. I have a cell phone picture I will try to get that posted today.

[Bryce]

Wheel pics

[batstang]

YEA! Been following!

[DynoDon]

Wheel pics

Come on, ON THE CAR - You're killing me smalls.

[Bryce]

Come on, ON THE CAR - You're killing me smalls.

Don this picture has one wheel on the car. Its just at full droop.

[srh3trinity]

That is gonna look great. Should have the perfect amount of sidewall for the car. Can't wait for more updates.

[DynoDon]

Don this picture has one wheel on the car. Its just at full droop.

Quit teasing and get that thing on the ground with 4 wheels :doh:

[Bryce]

That is gonna look great. Should have the perfect amount of sidewall for the car. Can't wait for more updates.

thanks Stephen, its looks freakin awesome with the one wheel on at full droop sitting on jack stands. I cant wait to see my car back on the ground. I am getting closer to having suspension back underneath it. The rear tires/wheels will fit after the leafs come out.

[Bryce]

full car picture with one wheel on.

[batstang]

I really didn't care for your wheels... at first, lol! They really compliment that ride!! Looking very nice!!

[johnny68]

looking good bryce lets go chop chop when its ready we'll get together and go cruise for lunch?

[DriverzInc]

I got my tires mounted at driverz inc yesterday. I wish I got a picture of Jon working on my wheels. He had his new snapon machines and those are awesome.

I will post a picture later today of the front wheel on the car.

Ha! That would have been funny! Thanks again Bryce, pleasure working with ya.

[DriverzInc]

I agree Matt, especially after watching a lot of the guys at Optima launch their manual cars for both the autoX and the speed-stop challenge. But hey, it's def not an easy thing to do even for a great driver -- launch a 500, 600, 700+ hp car with a big cam and 200+ treadwear tires.

Auto trans might make for a smoother and quicker launch or time, but it sure ain't as fun as rowing those gears.

I'll be running a 4L80E in my Nova too. Mainly because it already came with the car, so why spend money on replacing it when I can spend the money on other parts of the build. Looks like you and I both will be rockin the auto's Bryce!

[Matt@BOS]

I agree Matt, especially after watching a lot of the guys at Optima launch their manual cars for both the autoX and the speed-stop challenge. But hey, it's def not an easy thing to do even for a great driver -- launch a 500, 600, 700+ hp car with a big cam and 200+ treadwear tires.

Auto trans might make for a smoother and quicker launch or time, but it sure ain't as fun as rowing those gears.

X2 Dave is right,

I guess my two cents would be that with automatics you might not be leaving a ton of performance on the table, but you'll be leaving a bit of fun on the table.

Also, I'd like to hear what people who have had experience running autos on big tracks have to say. Can you downshift before a turn? Not all tracks are as forgiving about allowing a car to run in a single gear like 3rd the entire time, and I'm wondering how autos stack up in that respect.

Matt

[Bryce]

I really didn't care for your wheels... at first, lol! They really compliment that ride!! Looking very nice!!

Thanks BatStang. I think they look better on the car then off.

[Bryce]

Sounds good Johnny, I cant wait to get this car back on the road. I am working as fast as I can. HAHA

[Bryce]

Ha! That would have been funny! Thanks again Bryce, pleasure working with ya.

You da man Jon. I drive a 150mile round trip because I really only trust you with my wheels and you have great prices!

[Bryce]

Jon,

When you get a chance go back and look through the build pictures of my aluminum core support.

[Bryce]

I'll be running a 4L80E in my Nova too. Mainly because it already came with the car, so why spend money on replacing it when I can spend the money on other parts of the build. Looks like you and I both will be rockin the auto's Bryce!

I totally agree why spend the money. I think I can go faster spending the money somewhere else!

[Bryce]

X2 Dave is right,

I guess my two cents would be that with automatics you might not be leaving a ton of performance on the table, but you'll be leaving a bit of fun on the table.

Also, I'd like to hear what people who have had experience running autos on big tracks have to say. Can you downshift before a turn? Not all tracks are as forgiving about allowing a car to run in a single gear like 3rd the entire time, and I'm wondering how autos stack up in that respect.

Matt

Matt,

I have a built C4 now. There is no drive. Its a full manual with really good steels and clutches and kevlar bands. This trans spins the tires for about 40 feet when I shift to second and chirps in third. The nice thing is I can actually downshift with it, you just have to 'blip' the throttle to match RPMs otherwise it will lock up the rear tires for a split second. Since it doesnt have a computer governor to limit downshift RPM its possible to over rev it.

This setup may work pretty good. Really fast shifts too!

[Bjkadron]

Matt,

I have a built C4 now. There is no drive. Its a full manual with really good steels and clutches and kevlar bands. This trans spins the tires for about 40 feet when I shift to second and chirps in third. The nice thing is I can actually downshift with it, you just have to 'blip' the throttle to match RPMs otherwise it will lock up the rear tires for a split second. Since it doesnt have a computer governor to limit downshift RPM its possible to over rev it.

This setup may work pretty good. Really fast shifts too!

That set-up should work pretty good. the only thing you have to worry about is overheating the fluid under extended heavy use, like a road course. I would just wait on the swap if you already have that nice of an auto.. Mine is a cruddy stock one so I am changing it so I don't grenade it.

[MSTSFabbed]

The same thing at UCSD. Not too many kids had any pratical knowledge. Are you part of the FSAE team?

No we haven't been able to start that here, yet. Not enough enough interested people, mainly. Weve been real big into SAE Mini Baja though and doing pretty well at it too!

Wheels and tires look good! I'm excited to see it at ride height!

[Bryce]

Thanks stephen. Stay involved in the minibaja. Car will be on the wheels soon. The first mock up with the car on the ground should happen next week.

[srh3trinity]

It will be cool to see it sitting on the ground with the wheels.

[Bryce]

watts cradle welded:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03443-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/585372)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03444-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/585373)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03445-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/585374)

[19,69camaro]

That looks amazing nice job!

[David Sloan]

Very Nice! That is a sick looking part!

[chunger]

Almost seems a shame to hide something this nice under the car.

[Bjkadron]

Dang that's slick! Very nice!

[srh3trinity]

I know panhards and watts both work pretty well, but let's face it, the Watts link just looks so cool and mechanical. They make more sense to me too. Very nice piece.

[Bryce]

That set-up should work pretty good. the only thing you have to worry about is overheating the fluid under extended heavy use, like a road course. I would just wait on the swap if you already have that nice of an auto.. Mine is a cruddy stock one so I am changing it so I don't grenade it.


I have a trans cooler with a temp gauge in my aluminum core support. If needed I can always add a fan. It shouldnt be an issue if I can keep my speed up!

[Bryce]

It will be cool to see it sitting on the ground with the wheels.

If everything works out good it will be on the ground tomorrow.

[Bryce]

Almost seems a shame to hide something this nice under the car.


My dad said the same thing. Do you think my roll center will be too high if I mount it in the trunk! haha.

[Bryce]

I know panhards and watts both work pretty well, but let's face it, the Watts link just looks so cool and mechanical. They make more sense to me too. Very nice piece.

Watts can work better. They usually have a higher roll center. In my case I was more concerned about the tires rubbing with lateral movement.

[chunger]

My dad said the same thing. Do you think my roll center will be too high if I mount it in the trunk! haha.

Nah, you just need to install plexiglass in the trunk so you can show it off!

[Bjkadron]

Nah, you just need to install plexiglass in the trunk so you can show it off!

Uh.. That would be getting a little Blingy.. But how about a quick release access cover like the old NASCAR racers had! That would be awesome! Then if you ever went to a show, Pop it off and Ta-Da! haha

[Bryce]

I dont think so guys. Actually I am using the floor for structure. SO i cant weaken certain areas. I will have a bolt in access were the axle side third link mount will penetrates the floor.

[Bryce]

I now have three links but not a 3-link.........YET.

I made the two lower control arms yesterday, removed all the old suspension. Today I will mount the LCA mounts and the coilover mounts, the LCAs and I will make some cheap shocks/springs; they will be very stiff tho. HAHA.

I ordered my aluminum threaded tube for my watts links yesterday, it should be here on wednesday. It looks like I will have a lot of work to do over the long weekend.

[torino420]

look forward to seeing more, awesome work!!

[Bryce]

look forward to seeing more, awesome work!!

Thanks man,

updates should be coming pretty quickly now.

[Bryce]

I got the three link in and the wheels on. I need to massage the inner fender to get more clearance. But I nailed the back space and max width!

All pics are at droop maybe 1.5" to 2" lower than previous ride height. Im still thinking about changing the chassis third link mount.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03446-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/585499)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03447-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/585500)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03448-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/585501)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03449-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/585502)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03450-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/585503)

[srh3trinity]

Looks like you nailed the tire size too. Looks like it maximizes your wheel tub space.

[Bryce]

Looks like you nailed the tire size too. Looks like it maximizes your wheel tub space.

Yep, its maximized. 275 is the biggest. I think these are a 10.8 section width on a 9.5 wide wheel.

[johnny68]

lookin great bryce cant wait to see it in person
john

[csx4766]

I agree big improvement Bryce!

[batstang]

Oh, HECK YEAH!!

[wellis77]

Looks great Bryce. Looking forward to seeing it on the ground!

[454bug]

Great progress Bryce! Everything looks great!!

[Wesley J]

Great progress Bryce. That all looks awefully familiar, seems us Engineers think alike. I guess some would say morons seldom differ though....

Your going to love the 3 link, my car is quite planted and balanced.

[Bryce]

lookin great bryce cant wait to see it in person
john

Thanks John. Maybe it will be driveable before the new year!

[Bryce]

Looks great Bryce. Looking forward to seeing it on the ground!

thanks! me too. This week for sure.

[Bryce]

Great progress Bryce. That all looks awefully familiar, seems us Engineers think alike. I guess some would say morons seldom differ though....

Your going to love the 3 link, my car is quite planted and balanced.

Engineers have to make everything so complicated. I probably would have been fine with fiberglass leafs with spherical spring eyes and a watts link. The main advantage of running the 3-link (besides suspension geometry) is the tire I can fit now! Before my max tire size was a 245 now I have a 275.

[Bryce]

Great progress Bryce! Everything looks great!!

thanks Ray.

[Bryce]

I agree big improvement Bryce!


Oh, HECK YEAH!!

Thanks guys.

[Bjkadron]

AWESOME!!!! Looks Great! The 275's look just right! Hurry up and get it down! I want to see the stance!
Also I don't see many people who mark datum lines on stuff while they put it together. Come to think of it I don't know too many people who know what a Datum line is!

[Bjkadron]

Engineers have to make everything so complicated. I probably would have been fine with fiberglass leafs with spherical spring eyes and a watts link. The main advantage of running the 3-link (besides suspension geometry) is the tire I can fit now! Before my max tire size was a 245 now I have a 275.

I know I do... But! I challenged myself to see what I could do with the stock pick-up points on everything before I went nuts.
Speaking of which, Do you know anyone who does Clamp on Stuff for 3.5 axle tubes? I'd like to do the clamp on stuff so I can just move it when I do the three-link.

[srh3trinity]

Engineers have to make everything so complicated. I probably would have been fine with fiberglass leafs with spherical spring eyes and a watts link. The main advantage of running the 3-link (besides suspension geometry) is the tire I can fit now! Before my max tire size was a 245 now I have a 275.

Growing up as the son of a PhD level EE, I can confirm this. My dad and I went rounds when he helped me with Calculus homework. I am the only "non-math" person in my family. Dad is EE, Aunt is a math teacher, her husband is EE. Brother was a Engineering major and my sister is a math teacher. My first cousins are Computer Engineer, PhD Mechanical Engineer and Civil Engineer. Their husbands are all engineers and one of them has degrees in Comp Eng, Mechanical and Electrical. So, I have been around when all of these people were building a garage. Needless to say, it was overbuilt, under budget and there was plenty of "discussion" amongst all of these engineers as to which was the best way to do something. I have a science background, but I am certainly not an engineer, so I just drove the nails and made the cuts where I was told. I guess I am the black sheep, but some of it did rub off on me. I get by and I really like to put thought into how something should go together for strength and other factors, I just don't do it for a living.
All these engineers at a Thanksgiving dinner table can be really interesting. Now if I could only get some of them involved in building my car.

[Bryce]

AWESOME!!!! Looks Great! The 275's look just right! Hurry up and get it down! I want to see the stance!
Also I don't see many people who mark datum lines on stuff while they put it together. Come to think of it I don't know too many people who know what a Datum line is!

HAHA, good eye!

[Bryce]

I know I do... But! I challenged myself to see what I could do with the stock pick-up points on everything before I went nuts.
Speaking of which, Do you know anyone who does Clamp on Stuff for 3.5 axle tubes? I'd like to do the clamp on stuff so I can just move it when I do the three-link.

you have a 3.5" axle tube?

I cant think of anyone maybe some offroad guys?

[Bryce]

Growing up as the son of a PhD level EE, I can confirm this. My dad and I went rounds when he helped me with Calculus homework. I am the only "non-math" person in my family. Dad is EE, Aunt is a math teacher, her husband is EE. Brother was a Engineering major and my sister is a math teacher. My first cousins are Computer Engineer, PhD Mechanical Engineer and Civil Engineer. Their husbands are all engineers and one of them has degrees in Comp Eng, Mechanical and Electrical. So, I have been around when all of these people were building a garage. Needless to say, it was overbuilt, under budget and there was plenty of "discussion" amongst all of these engineers as to which was the best way to do something. I have a science background, but I am certainly not an engineer, so I just drove the nails and made the cuts where I was told. I guess I am the black sheep, but some of it did rub off on me. I get by and I really like to put thought into how something should go together for strength and other factors, I just don't do it for a living.
All these engineers at a Thanksgiving dinner table can be really interesting. Now if I could only get some of them involved in building my car.

That would be a fun table to be at!

[Wesley J]

Engineers have to make everything so complicated.

True, most do. I've learned a few things over the past couple of decades of being an Engineer and building cars/motorcycles:

1: Engineering is the science of "close enough"
2: A computer is used in the design phase to make fast, accurate mistakes
3: Simulation is like mast ur bation, the more you do it, the more you think its the real deal
4: Design something to be idiot proof and someone just makes a better idiot. Ya, I know, this is unrelated but I just like to say it....

The key here is to Engineer in tunability because your calculation of COG etc will be wrong.

Oh ya, and 1+1=2 but only for significantly large values of 1......

Wesley J

[Wesley J]

Growing up as the son of a PhD level EE, I can confirm this. My dad and I went rounds when he helped me with Calculus homework. I am the only "non-math" person in my family. Dad is EE, Aunt is a math teacher, her husband is EE. Brother was a Engineering major and my sister is a math teacher. My first cousins are Computer Engineer, PhD Mechanical Engineer and Civil Engineer. Their husbands are all engineers and one of them has degrees in Comp Eng, Mechanical and Electrical. So, I have been around when all of these people were building a garage. Needless to say, it was overbuilt, under budget and there was plenty of "discussion" amongst all of these engineers as to which was the best way to do something. I have a science background, but I am certainly not an engineer, so I just drove the nails and made the cuts where I was told. I guess I am the black sheep, but some of it did rub off on me. I get by and I really like to put thought into how something should go together for strength and other factors, I just don't do it for a living.
All these engineers at a Thanksgiving dinner table can be really interesting. Now if I could only get some of them involved in building my car.

I'm with you Stephen. I'm terrible with math, thats why the good lord invented computers... IMHO the key to math is a high level understanding, the details are worked out in a spreadsheet or FE model. Ask a lot of Engineers what order differential equation describes the action of a shock absorber and they'll look at you like you're nuts. That being said, if you can answer it correctly they may also think you're nuts...

Wesley J

[Bjkadron]

HAHA, good eye!

Yeah I have Hours and Hours, and hours, and hours of GDT. Datums stick out to my brain. What did you use it in reference to?


you have a 3.5" axle tube?

I cant think of anyone maybe some offroad guys?

I don't right now, but the Axle I want to use is the ford 8.8 and all of them have 3.5" axle tubes.

[Bryce]

Yeah I have Hours and Hours, and hours, and hours of GDT. Datums stick out to my brain. What did you use it in reference to?

Technically its not a datum. The garage floor is the datum this was used to know how much I lifted the rear end. I also took a measurement at the rocker panel on each side front and back.




I don't right now, but the Axle I want to use is the ford 8.8 and all of them have 3.5" axle tubes.

Are you sure? I will go measure my 95 mustang. Look into griggs racing. They have clamp on brackets for their mustang torque arm kit. I really think its a 3" axle tho.

[19,69camaro]

I watched whats eating gilbert grape last night and couldnt help but think how much that car looked like yours. Other than the fact that it was a 62 i think http://imcdb.org/images/060/944.jpg . The watts link looks super slick btw

[Bryce]

Thanks Aldin,

I hope my falcon will end up better looking than that one!

[LowFast]

I watched whats eating gilbert grape last night and couldnt help but think how much that car looked like yours. Other than the fact that it was a 62 i think http://imcdb.org/images/060/944.jpg . The watts link looks super slick btw

Now that is a sleeper.

[Bjkadron]

Did you happen to check your axle tubes on the Mustang? Because if the Mustang has 3" tubes I might be able to use one of those instead of the Explorer rear. But the great thing about the explorers is most have A limited slip, 28 spline axles, and 3.55's or 3.73's and I can get them for $200 all day long. Pretty good value if you ask me, and they are pretty much the perfect width.

[LowFast]

Did you happen to check your axle tubes on the Mustang? Because if the Mustang has 3" tubes I might be able to use one of those instead of the Explorer rear. But the great thing about the explorers is most have A limited slip, 28 spline axles, and 3.55's or 3.73's and I can get them for $200 all day long. Pretty good value if you ask me, and they are pretty much the perfect width.

Explorer tubes are same as all 8.8, they are just over 3", 3.3 I believe. They are also 31 spline. I picked one up with LSD and disk brakes for $200. Only issue is the pumpkin is offset 3" to once side but you can shorten one tube and use an extra short axle to even it up.

[Bjkadron]

Explorer tubes are same as all 8.8, they are just over 3", 3.3 I believe. They are also 31 spline. I picked one up with LSD and disk brakes for $200. Only issue is the pumpkin is offset 3" to once side but you can shorten one tube and use an extra short axle to even it up.

Yes, I meant they are Not The 28 spline. Thanks for the correction. I know about the offset. My main concern is the oversize tubes. I wanted to use the clamp on components, but they are all for 3" tubes. At least the stuff I can find.

[LowFast]

Yep, just went out and verified with calipers, just under 3.3" for the 8.8. Could you not slot out the clamp on components and then get some new u-bolts from ford that are a direct fit for the 8.8. Heck, I have 3 ubolts that came with my 8.8 (one must have slipped off when loading on the truck at the yard)

[Bryce]

I did not measure my mustang as it is too low to get underneath easily. But I did put on my 3" clamp on bracket and it felt loose as if the 8.8 diameter was 2.7 or something. I will check tomorrow.

[Bryce]

The Falcon on four wheels.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03451-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586411)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03452-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586412)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03453-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586413)

Those shocks might give a rough ride.

I will have a more descriptive write up about the status tomorrow.

[LowFast]

The Falcon on four wheels.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03451-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586411)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03452-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586412)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03453-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586413)

Those shocks might give a rough ride.

I will have a more descriptive write up about the status tomorrow.

Looks great, I am jealous, so is this the anticipated final ride height or do you expect it to settle a bit?

[LeighP]

Nice! Got a soft spot for 60's Falcons...I've owned a couple over the years, including my first car.

[Bjkadron]

Looks Great!

That would be great if you could see if the clamps work!

[srh3trinity]

Looks nice sitting there. I like how the wheel tucks in with the line of the rear fender.

[DynoDon]

The Falcon on four wheels.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03451-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586411)

.

FINALLY! :jump: Thanks for posting, looks Cool :twothumbs:

[67redrocket]

Those wheels look very good on your car Bryce!

[Bryce]

Nice! Got a soft spot for 60's Falcons...I've owned a couple over the years, including my first car.

Thats cool. THis was my first car!

[Bryce]

Looks great, I am jealous, so is this the anticipated final ride height or do you expect it to settle a bit?

The front will settle between .5" and 1".

And thank you! Hopefully you will have your falcon done soon!

[Bryce]

Looks Great!

That would be great if you could see if the clamps work!

The clamps seem to work, I will go see if I can get my calipers on the axle tubes to get an exact measurment.

[Bryce]

Looks nice sitting there. I like how the wheel tucks in with the line of the rear fender.

thanks, it makes it really hard to take the wheels off. I have to lift the car then put jack stands under the body so the rear end will droop. I hope I wont have to take the shocks loose to get enough droop.

[Bryce]

FINALLY! :jump: Thanks for posting, looks Cool :twothumbs:

I know seriously!!!!!!!! HAHA. Thanks Don! When will yours be done?

[Bryce]

Those wheels look very good on your car Bryce!

Thank you. Your first post was in my thread! woohoo!

[Bryce]

Pictures are nice but here is the update:

The front end is on the ground but needs to settle about one more inch. The back end is fitting the 275 wide tires. But I only have a 1/4" clearance on the inside wheel well. Some mods will need to be made to make room, minitub in to the frame rails will give me plenty. i made all the spacers for the LCA to spring eye attachment. With the car on the ground I verified all my previous measurments and re-ran my rear suspension calculations. The Axle mount for the LCA needs to be drilled so the LCA is horizontal at ride height, I was already expecting this. The UCA chassis mount will be modified so it can be adjustable. I will order the AFCO T2s today. I have a 14" shock at ride height. there is alot more work but its coming along. ( I should have spent more time on the car last week, but i did get my house decorated for christmas and my tree up so I cant complain.)

[Wesley J]

Can I make a quick observation/advice based on my learnings on a similar setup? Make the LCA pick up points adjustable rather than UCA, they're drastically easier to move than the UCA. Plus, with the drastically longer links, the adjustment of one hole diameter results in a much smaller change to the IC.

My $0.02

[Bryce]

Can I make a quick observation/advice based on my learnings on a similar setup? Make the LCA pick up points adjustable rather than UCA, they're drastically easier to move than the UCA. Plus, with the drastically longer links, the adjustment of one hole diameter results in a much smaller change to the IC.

My $0.02

I agree with what you said about smaller changes. However, for street and track setups I want a horizontal LCA to limit roll steer. The upper control arm mount will be slotted so that changes are small. I also has another mounting location on the housing for teh UCA. The LCA has an adjustable mount on the housing for track days at teh strip! I am adjustable for 55% to 130% maybe more if needed.

[Bjkadron]

I agree with what you said about smaller changes. However, for street and track setups I want a horizontal LCA to limit roll steer. The upper control arm mount will be slotted so that changes are small. I also has another mounting location on the housing for teh UCA. The LCA has an adjustable mount on the housing for track days at teh strip! I am adjustable for 55% to 130% maybe more if needed.

Have you considered, instead of slotting the UCA frame side hole, drilling a series of overlapping holes. This would provide the fine adjustment you want, but also positive locating because of the "nubs" and insurance against slippage as well. That is what I'm doing. I can draw it up if I'm not clear.

[Bjkadron]

Here, like this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/plate-1.jpg

it is a little harder to make, but I would say it would be worth it.

[Bryce]

Have you considered, instead of slotting the UCA frame side hole, drilling a series of overlapping holes. This would provide the fine adjustment you want, but also positive locating because of the "nubs" and insurance against slippage as well. That is what I'm doing. I can draw it up if I'm not clear.

I have thought about that but i dont think I can get a fine enough adjustment. Im talking about 1/8" would be fine tuning. Maybe thats the engineer in me being picky, but............

There is no issue with a slot in a vertical direction, or perpendicular to the arm at ride height. There is not much force in the direction of the slot. Another idea is to slot it on an arc so that the arm does not need to have a length change.

[Bryce]

Here, like this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/plate-1.jpg

it is a little harder to make, but I would say it would be worth it.


Now you are just showing off you solidworks skills. NICE!

[Bjkadron]

I have thought about that but i dont think I can get a fine enough adjustment. Im talking about 1/8" would be fine tuning. Maybe thats the engineer in me being picky, but............

There is no issue with a slot in a vertical direction, or perpendicular to the arm at ride height. There is not much force in the direction of the slot. Another idea is to slot it on an arc so that the arm does not need to have a length change.

Yeah 1/8 would be a little absurd, that would be a LOT of holes. I was going to go 1/4 on mine. Or the slotted arc. Actually If I make it on a CNC I might just do a series of holes arc in 1/8" increments! Nothing like over-doing it right?!


Now you are just showing off you solidworks skills. NICE!

Ehh.. Not really, I was just really bored there for a minute, and since I now have it at home... and you can't tell as much because of how I rotated it but the holes are on an arc.

[droptop73]

On a slotted adjustment, would it be too complex to add adjustment screws? They would be parallel to the axis of the slot to control movement and provide micro adjustability.

[Bryce]

Jeff,

I cant picture what you are describing. Maybe if I read it in the morning after some coffee my brain will work.

[jtomas801]

Hey Bryce, the car looks great and I like how you built the watts link setup.

The picture below is what I think Jeff was thinking of, you can turn the screw and the whole pivot point moves up and down.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/p134812_large1970_Chevrolet_ChevelleSusp-1.jpg

Jon

[Bryce]

Thanks Jon,

That makes sense now. I dont have the room for a setup like that. That would be cool though.

[Bjkadron]

Wow... I had thought of that for Panhard bar adjustment and such, but never for the actual suspension mounts. Now I'm thinking I can fit that in if I cut the floor just a bit... Very cool idea!

[jtomas801]

Yeah, I was thinking about using it to as the upper link mount instead of my slotted mount. I would have to remake every thing, but will see what happens when I get the roll cage in. It is about $275.00

https://www.circletracksupply.com/product.php?productid=1393&cat=0&page=1

I haven't gone searching for a cheaper price or a similar piece.

Jon

[Bryce]

Wow... I had thought of that for Panhard bar adjustment and such, but never for the actual suspension mounts. Now I'm thinking I can fit that in if I cut the floor just a bit... Very cool idea!

And you were giving me a hard time for wanting fine adjustments!!!

[Bryce]

Yeah, I was thinking about using it to as the upper link mount instead of my slotted mount. I would have to remake every thing, but will see what happens when I get the roll cage in. It is about $275.00

https://www.circletracksupply.com/product.php?productid=1393&cat=0&page=1

I haven't gone searching for a cheaper price or a similar piece.

Jon

jon,

Post up a link to your car, I would like to see some pictures.

[Bjkadron]

And you were giving me a hard time for wanting fine adjustments!!!

No No No... I was saying it would be hard to do fine adjustments with the set-up I suggested. most of my adjustment is going to be in my upper link anyway, So I might as well be able to fine tune it. Besides, If I'm going to be a good engineer I have to get used to over-complicating things! Right?
This idea would be really cool. But, the only thing I would want to add is a lock of some sort so it doesn't move during just regular street driving with the vibration and such.

[MichaelUser]

Now you are just showing off you solidworks skills. NICE!


Here is my crude concept to maybe solve your dilemma. I think it could work. Not to complex. this was drawn by me in two minutes. FWTW.

42638

[Wesley J]

I'd agree with Bryce, the arced slot is the best way to go. The force along the long axis of the slot would be minimal so the clamping force provided by a 5/8" fine thread bolt should be much more than required to keep it from moving IMHO.

Bryce, I'm going to agree with you on the roll steer. I found adjustment to my AS to be meaningless as I have such little horsepower, although this wont be the case next year... The adjustments I made were to improve my roll steer, which was pretty bad initially. What I've found is that I'd like more fine tunability now that I'm in the ballpark. The problem is that you wont know the ballpark until spent a bunch of time tuning.

Wes

[jtomas801]

I wish the picture above was from my car, but it is from a chevelle, http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/featuredvehicles/65158_1970_chevrolet_chevelle/index.html

Here is the link to my build, http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26454&page=6

Have a lot more to do but it is getting there.

Thanks,
Jon

[rixtrix1]

I have thought about that but i dont think I can get a fine enough adjustment. Im talking about 1/8" would be fine tuning. Maybe thats the engineer in me being picky, but............

There is no issue with a slot in a vertical direction, or perpendicular to the arm at ride height. There is not much force in the direction of the slot. Another idea is to slot it on an arc so that the arm does not need to have a length change.

I installed a four link that had 1/8" adjustments provided for 5/8" bolts by having multiple sets of bolt in plates with each set of holes offset from the next. This allowed a full 5/8" of metal between holes so theere could be no slippage. Further modeling and subsequent track testing showed that only two sets of plates and 3 holes made all the difference needed, but provided a positive location for each adjustment used.

[Bryce]

No No No... I was saying it would be hard to do fine adjustments with the set-up I suggested. most of my adjustment is going to be in my upper link anyway, So I might as well be able to fine tune it. Besides, If I'm going to be a good engineer I have to get used to over-complicating things! Right?
This idea would be really cool. But, the only thing I would want to add is a lock of some sort so it doesn't move during just regular street driving with the vibration and such.

Over complicated but not over weight. I like to look at every part as an opportunity to reduce weight. I think there is a lighter simpler solution by using an arced slot. I dont need super quick changes either. Especially in A/S

[Bryce]

Here is my crude concept to maybe solve your dilemma. I think it could work. Not to complex. this was drawn by me in two minutes. FWTW.

42638

Michael,

That would work but it still has a course adjustment. Nice drawing!

[Bryce]

I wish the picture above was from my car, but it is from a chevelle, http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/featuredvehicles/65158_1970_chevrolet_chevelle/index.html

Here is the link to my build, http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26454&page=6

Have a lot more to do but it is getting there.

Thanks,
Jon

Awesome car Jon.

[Bryce]

I'd agree with Bryce, the arced slot is the best way to go. The force along the long axis of the slot would be minimal so the clamping force provided by a 5/8" fine thread bolt should be much more than required to keep it from moving IMHO.

Bryce, I'm going to agree with you on the roll steer. I found adjustment to my AS to be meaningless as I have such little horsepower, although this wont be the case next year... The adjustments I made were to improve my roll steer, which was pretty bad initially. What I've found is that I'd like more fine tunability now that I'm in the ballpark. The problem is that you wont know the ballpark until spent a bunch of time tuning.

Wes

Thanks Wesley, and I am using 3/4" hardware!

The only issue with too much A/S is potential for brake hop, this is also due to a short IC.

[batstang]

unh...Bryce...pics?

[Bryce]

What pictures are you waiting on? HAHA!

[Bjkadron]

Yeah I was thinking about that to after I posted. I think I'm just going to go with a multi-drilled arc. That will be plenty of adjustment for me, will be one less thing to go wrong, and will provide positive locating for the link so I don't have to re-measure every time I change something.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

got some new pics for the site Bryce?

[Bryce]

got some new pics for the site Bryce?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03451-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586411)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/tn_full_DSC03452-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/586412)

I will have some better pics once I get the car outside!

[Bryce]

Yeah I was thinking about that to after I posted. I think I'm just going to go with a multi-drilled arc. That will be plenty of adjustment for me, will be one less thing to go wrong, and will provide positive locating for the link so I don't have to re-measure every time I change something.

Good choice!

[Bryce]

Has anyone every used the Kirkey intermediate road race seats? I think I want to switch my current seats to those.

for a comparison,

mine:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_pics_003jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/455830)

Kirkey: see attached

[asifnyc]

Hey Bryce,

I just put a Kirkey Intermediate Road Race seat in my American Iron Javelin. But I haven't actually "used" it yet. just sat in it for a minute here or there. will the falcon be primarily a street car?

[wellis77]

If it is a street car, that doesn't look like a very comfortable seat???

[Bryce]

If it is a street car, that doesn't look like a very comfortable seat???

It's street car but not really. It will never be a daily driver. It will be driven to local events but trailered to other places. I will probably only drive it to work a few times a year. It will be a weekend cruiser in nice weather, to just go drive it!


Hey Bryce,

I just put a Kirkey Intermediate Road Race seat in my American Iron Javelin. But I haven't actually "used" it yet. just sat in it for a minute here or there. will the falcon be primarily a street car?

How do you like them? Can you shift easily? How about the entry/exit in/out of the car? I will eventually have door bars so those will be in the way too. How is the visibility? When I drive on the street would I be able to see my blind spots?

[DynoDon]

I know seriously!!!!!!!! HAHA. Thanks Don! When will yours be done?

It's on the ground now, but with the goofy 14's on it. I probably won't get the new wheels and tires and flare the fenders until January. Too many other things happening in the shop right now - swapping motors between 4 Fords, it's kind of crazy. The "race" 302 is coming out of my 32 Coupe and slated for the Falcon, the Falcon motor gets freshened up and goes in the 34 Coupe, the 347 stroker from the 34 goes in the 29 Roadster Pick Up and the 345 HP 302 from the 29 goes in the 32 Coupe!

[carnalsupply]

Those Kirkey's have wrap-around sides similar (though smaller) to our sprint car seats, which means once I got my fat butt in your Falcon you'd probably never get me out! Can I come by this weekend for a trial fit?

[19 usac]

Brice, you will hate that seat it hurts your back and butt after 25 laps in a sprint car (5 miles) A Butler seat is much more comfortable! Look into the Cobra roadrace seat it's a pretty nice piece.Now getting back to Bob's comment, Getting Bob out of the seat was a sight to behold LOL it was kinda sad he didn't fit it the car.We went to test so he could run some hot laps on a cool little 1/4 mile dirt track after being the crew chief for over 25 years. Jimmy

[Bryce]

Those Kirkey's have wrap-around sides similar (though smaller) to our sprint car seats, which means once I got my fat butt in your Falcon you'd probably never get me out! Can I come by this weekend for a trial fit?

HAHA, come by whenever, but I dont want anyone stuck in my falcon! You can sit shotgun.


19 usac
Brice, you will hate that seat it hurts your back and butt after 25 laps in a sprint car (5 miles) A Butler seat is much more comfortable! Look into the Cobra roadrace seat it's a pretty nice piece.Now getting back to Bob's comment, Getting Bob out of the seat was a sight to behold LOL it was kinda sad he didn't fit it the car.We went to test so he could run some hot laps on a cool little 1/4 mile dirt track after being the crew chief for over 25 years. Jimmy

LOL, thanks Jimmy. I will look into that. The seats I have now are great. Full frame so no need to bolt them to the cage. They are also full suspension and really comfortable. I was just looking to lose some weight and repurpose my current seats.

I appreciate all the opinions.

[Bryce]

It's on the ground now, but with the goofy 14's on it. I probably won't get the new wheels and tires and flare the fenders until January. Too many other things happening in the shop right now - swapping motors between 4 Fords, it's kind of crazy. The "race" 302 is coming out of my 32 Coupe and slated for the Falcon, the Falcon motor gets freshened up and goes in the 34 Coupe, the 347 stroker from the 34 goes in the 29 Roadster Pick Up and the 345 HP 302 from the 29 goes in the 32 Coupe!

I hope you aren't complaining about all those extra engines. I know I like having all the extra parts that my dad and I have.

I cant wait to see your falcon!

[Bryce]

After some brainstorming I came up with some problems to my clearance issues. I got my watts link dialed in and a new idea for my upper shock mount.

[NOT A TA]

I put the Kirkey #63 NASCAR style seats in my car and cut the head halo sides back. I think they're pretty comfortable and I use the car daily. They didn't have the #45 available then or I would have gone with those.

[Bryce]

I put the Kirkey #63 NASCAR style seats in my car and cut the head halo sides back. I think they're pretty comfortable and I use the car daily. They didn't have the #45 available then or I would have gone with those.

Thanks for the insight John. I guess I will have to sit in them before I buy them. How is your visibility? Like if you had to turn your head to change lanes? could you see?

[Bryce]

I have 21 big items on my "to do list" in order to complete the rear suspension. I got one more completed this afternoon. HAHA. Good thing RTTC is sold out, I might not even have my car done by then.

[Bryce]

more watts pictures and pictures of the TCI cradle mods. I will also be cutting the shock mounts off.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03454-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/587457)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03455-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/587458)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03456-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/587459)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03457-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/587460)

[Bryce]

Before I order shocks directly from AFCO any dealers have a good price on T2s?

[Bjkadron]

Looking good!

[Flash68]

That looks bad ass. Really enjoying this thread.

[Bryce]

Thanks guys.

[Bryce]

My brain has shifted gears. I started to think about steering again. My current manual box is 22:1, HAHA. I have been thinking about the borgeson integral power box (16:1) with a shelby quick steer pitman and roller idler (~13:1). Then to dial out bumpsteer I would build my own centerlink. Tie rods would be aluminum with aluminum rodends. Anyone run this setup? I would like to stay manual steering but I dont know if I could turn the wheels with the 245s up front. My lightweight front end helps tho.

Maybe I can have Lee rebuild my box with better/modern internals and a quicker ratio.

Anyone know of a aluminum steering box. Flaming river has some, I might investigate that option as well.

I gave up on the idea of a rack for the time being. The cost of a TCP rack is out of the budget. And there is no weight savings.

[csx4766]

I am planning to order Borgeson Box setup this week for my 67 Mustang. Researched this quite a bit and for the money its looks like the way to go. easy to set up, good turning radius, cost savings over the rack systems. I have not heard great things about flaming river, could be just here say. Plan to oder an ididit steering column with the box set up right from Borgeson

[Bryce]

Let me know how that goes. I have heard there were some clearance issues with the frame.

it seams like the best value.

[Bjkadron]

Fast ratio manual steering isn't bad at all once you get going. The only time you need the assist is when you are going really slow. Like parallel parking in a tight spot. I did that yesterday and it was NOT fun. But the feel is great! Loads up perfectly on the corners and such.

[Wesley J]

My experience: I started with a quick ratio rack in my Mustang and it was horendous. I'm a pretty strong guy and I had a really hard time parking. It was actually so bad that you could feel the tortional deflection in the column... Moved to power and life is all good. As you likely know, my car is smilar weight and ran a 245 front tire. I'm moving to a 275 so it'll be even more important.

Its very light steering right now....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/DSC_0329-1.jpg

[Bryce]

My experience: I started with a quick ratio rack in my Mustang and it was horendous. I'm a pretty strong guy and I had a really hard time parking. It was actually so bad that you could feel the tortional deflection in the column... Moved to power and life is all good. As you likely know, my car is smilar weight and ran a 245 front tire. I'm moving to a 275 so it'll be even more important.

Its very light steering right now....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/DSC_0329-1.jpg

HAHA, What happened to your car?

[Bryce]

Back to rear suspension:

With my current set up and ride height I can only run a 4" stroke shock with a 12.875 length at ride height. My lower shock mount is as low as possible and I have zero clearance to let the upper mount protrude through the floor. Maybe I need to do a rocker arm set up to get the desired travel. Maybe 4" stroke is enough 2" up and 2" down but stiffer springs will be in order. This is if i go with a matching AFCO shock.

Maybe I should look into another shock company, Varishock or strange.

Well this is my last road block. I have more fabrication but this is the last big part i need.

[carnalsupply]

Hey Bryce,

Might I suggest contacting my buddy Jimmy: with all the various shock and spring packages we use on the sprint cars he's got a REALLY good handle on various manufacturers, etc., and might be able to help you out. In fact, we're a dealer for a variety of different manufacturers and although I can't speak for him I bet he could find you a pretty decent deal.

His screen name is USAC 19 and you can find posts both in my build as well as yours.

[Bryce]

Hey Bryce,

Might I suggest contacting my buddy Jimmy: with all the various shock and spring packages we use on the sprint cars he's got a REALLY good handle on various manufacturers, etc., and might be able to help you out. In fact, we're a dealer for a variety of different manufacturers and although I can't speak for him I bet he could find you a pretty decent deal.

His screen name is USAC 19 and you can find posts both in my build as well as yours.

Thanks Bob, I will probably give him a call early next week. I looked at all the coilover companies in my price range and determine that varishock only has .25" more travel than the afco. So I am still leaning to AFCO. Penske will work on making me any length I might need. I will try to call them and and see what I can get in the 7500 series double adjustable. Its out of my budget, but maybe I can swing it if it works better.

[MichaelUser]

What about QA1.
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_industrial/shock_absorbers.html
Afco is now owned by Speedway motors. FWTW.

[Wesley J]

HAHA, What happened to your car?

Plasma cutter and a weak mind...

[Wesley J]

I went with a set of single adjustable QA1 coil overs. I'm running a 200 lb spring and its fairly stiff. I have no problem adjusting my ride height and have no bottom or top out issues as I'm still running my jounce bumpers to limit travel.

The compression/rebound dampening are supposed to be linked but I've found it to not work well with my setup. When I adjust the shock to provide what I feel is good rebound dampening, the compression is really harsh. I've settled on 3 clicks for the street (rebound is too fast) and 5-6 clicks when autocrossing (compression is f-ing harsh). I'll likely end up moving to a higher end or double adjustable in the future. As you can see I have more to worry about these days.

On a side note, the Bilstein struts ('04 Mustang) are truely fantastic which is surprising considering just how much lighter my front end is when compared to an '04...

Wes

[Bryce]

Wesley how much travel do you have on your rear shocks?

[Bryce]

Fast ratio manual steering isn't bad at all once you get going. The only time you need the assist is when you are going really slow. Like parallel parking in a tight spot. I did that yesterday and it was NOT fun. But the feel is great! Loads up perfectly on the corners and such.

I think you are right, I just dont want to hate the car when I drive it to a local car show or something.

But right now my pitman and idler arm would prevent me form ever going to a more performance head since my headers are already maxed out for clearance.

[Bryce]

What about QA1.
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_industrial/shock_absorbers.html
Afco is now owned by Speedway motors. FWTW.

Really, i like speedway so thats kinda cool.

I dont really like QA1 they are a nice street shock for the same money as AFCO. I have used afco on a few project now and no issues and perform great.

[Bjkadron]

I think you are right, I just dont want to hate the car when I drive it to a local car show or something.

But right now my pitman and idler arm would prevent me form ever going to a more performance head since my headers are already maxed out for clearance.

Yes, I would actually only recommend it on a track only car. Because that is the only place you care that much about the weight penalty and power loss. I'm going to run power on both of mine. I am planning a steering quickener, a smaller steering wheel, and a newer pump on one, and am considering a miata rack for the other. But I don't know if that will work. I'll have to check.

[Bryce]

My car is setup as a race only with all the other compromises I have made. Im a big guy so I can turn anything, HAHA.

Remeber a miata rack was not designed to see the same laods as your duster. The miata was much lighter with only a 225 tire. I think you may have some flex or breakage issues.

[Bjkadron]

My car is setup as a race only with all the other compromises I have made. Im a big guy so I can turn anything, HAHA.

Remeber a miata rack was not designed to see the same laods as your duster. The miata was much lighter with only a 225 tire. I think you may have some flex or breakage issues.

Well In that case go for manual, But I'm telling you , find a Non-parallel parking spot. haha!

Yeah I thought of that.. That is one of the things I was going to look into.. I've seen them take some really big loads but mine is pretty serious so I don't know. I am also considering mustang racks, But I have yet to drive one and Feel is really important to me.

[Bryce]

So today was really productive.

Went to a christmas car show with my dad, we took his ranchero.

I set the pinion angle.

Finalized the geoemtry.

Finsihed the design of the upper link chassis mount. Now I need to cut it out of steel and weld it on.

And I even got some yard work done.

So the project is nearing the end. WOOHOO.

To bad I have to work 70 hours next week. Otherwise I would have a lot of progress to show.

[Flash68]

Back to rear suspension:

With my current set up and ride height I can only run a 4" stroke shock with a 12.875 length at ride height. My lower shock mount is as low as possible and I have zero clearance to let the upper mount protrude through the floor. Maybe I need to do a rocker arm set up to get the desired travel. Maybe 4" stroke is enough 2" up and 2" down but stiffer springs will be in order. This is if i go with a matching AFCO shock.

Maybe I should look into another shock company, Varishock or strange.

Well this is my last road block. I have more fabrication but this is the last big part i need.

Have you spoken with Mark @ SC&C yet? He is a wealth of knowledge on suspension. And will take all the time you need to talk to you about it. I just got my Hellwig rear bar and he helped me figure out which Varishocks to order on my rear *******ized setup too. I am running a 5.15" travel Varishock and we needed much shorter shocks due to the previous fab work done to my car. When I asked him about shorter shock travel being an issue, he said it should be fine for my app and said that a factory C5 or C6 Vette (cant remember which one) has like 2.x" of rear shock travel.

Anyway, if you're considering Varishocks, he would be a good call to make about it.

[Wesley J]

Wesley how much travel do you have on your rear shocks?

5 3/8"

http://qa1.thomasnet.com/item/proma-star-reg-single-and-double-adjustable-shoc-2/proma-star-reg-single-and-double-adjustable-shocks/dr5855b?&plpver=1001

[Wesley J]

Yes, I would actually only recommend it on a track only car. Because that is the only place you care that much about the weight penalty and power loss. I'm going to run power on both of mine. I am planning a steering quickener, a smaller steering wheel, and a newer pump on one, and am considering a miata rack for the other. But I don't know if that will work. I'll have to check.

I found autocrossing to be really challenging with my fast manual rack. I can gaurantee that my lap times suffered due to the extra effort vs the 8 pounds added by the PS pump...

[Bjkadron]

I found autocrossing to be really challenging with my fast manual rack. I can gaurantee that my lap times suffered due to the extra effort vs the 8 pounds added by the PS pump...

That is true.. I don't do a lot of rapid direction changes, More smooth fast corners. I haven't been able to make it to an autocross yet.

[Wesley J]

he said it should be fine for my app and said that a factory C5 or C6 Vette (cant remember which one) has like 2.x" of rear shock travel.

You need to compare apples to apples when it comes to shock geometry. The C5/6 shock angle and falling rate make a drastic difference to the amount of travel required. I think Bryce is like me and looking to maximize his shock effectiveness by keeping it as vertical as possible and as long as possible. Thats why I cut out my floor and built a crossmember. The further out and more vertical you keep your shock, the better its going to work, all other things being equal.

[Wesley J]

That is true.. I don't do a lot of rapid direction changes, More smooth fast corners. I haven't been able to make it to an autocross yet.

I actually dislocated my thumb slightly when I was armstonging it through a tight/slow corner and my elbow contacted my door. Not fun.

[Bryce]

Have you spoken with Mark @ SC&C yet? He is a wealth of knowledge on suspension. And will take all the time you need to talk to you about it. I just got my Hellwig rear bar and he helped me figure out which Varishocks to order on my rear *******ized setup too. I am running a 5.15" travel Varishock and we needed much shorter shocks due to the previous fab work done to my car. When I asked him about shorter shock travel being an issue, he said it should be fine for my app and said that a factory C5 or C6 Vette (cant remember which one) has like 2.x" of rear shock travel.

Anyway, if you're considering Varishocks, he would be a good call to make about it.

Good point, I always forget about all of the resources here! I think I settled on 4" stroke.

[Bryce]

5 3/8"

http://qa1.thomasnet.com/item/proma-star-reg-single-and-double-adjustable-shoc-2/proma-star-reg-single-and-double-adjustable-shocks/dr5855b?&plpver=1001

Thanks Wesley,

I guess I will hope 4" is good enough! What did you do for your bumpstop?

[Bryce]

I found autocrossing to be really challenging with my fast manual rack. I can gaurantee that my lap times suffered due to the extra effort vs the 8 pounds added by the PS pump...


Hmm, I guess more to think about.

I ran into one of my buddies at the car show this weekend; he just put in a toyota power steering box into his 65 mustang. It turned out great, he really likes it. Now if I can just figure out how to have the headers clear the pitman and idler arms.

[Bryce]

I actually dislocated my thumb slightly when I was armstonging it through a tight/slow corner and my elbow contacted my door. Not fun.

ouch

[Bryce]

You need to compare apples to apples when it comes to shock geometry. The C5/6 shock angle and falling rate make a drastic difference to the amount of travel required. I think Bryce is like me and looking to maximize his shock effectiveness by keeping it as vertical as possible and as long as possible. Thats why I cut out my floor and built a crossmember. The further out and more vertical you keep your shock, the better its going to work, all other things being equal.

I thought about sectioning the frame for clearance, so I could run a longer shock. Its just too much work for a little gain.

[Bjkadron]

Hmm, I guess more to think about.

I ran into one of my buddies at the car show this weekend; he just put in a toyota power steering box into his 65 mustang. It turned out great, he really likes it. Now if I can just figure out how to have the headers clear the pitman and idler arms.

If you find out more about it let me know. I might be interested.

[Flash68]

You need to compare apples to apples when it comes to shock geometry. The C5/6 shock angle and falling rate make a drastic difference to the amount of travel required. I think Bryce is like me and looking to maximize his shock effectiveness by keeping it as vertical as possible and as long as possible. Thats why I cut out my floor and built a crossmember. The further out and more vertical you keep your shock, the better its going to work, all other things being equal.

and this is why I try not to regurgitate TOO much information 2nd hand. :) I agree completely and did not intend to make that a direct comparison statement, nor do I think Mark @ SC&C was either.

[Bryce]

If you find out more about it let me know. I might be interested.

Basically its a toyota box from an 1980 cresida. It has integral power steering. the pitman spline is larger than a stock mustang and has a 3/4-16 spline (I think) to the steering wheel. So you would run a rag joint or universal to connect to the steering shaft. He used a stock ford power steering pump. And he custom made lines and ran a PS cooler. He also welded the stock ford pitman to the stcok cresida pitman to retain stock geometry and get the correct cresida splines. He told me that if he knew it work this good he would have done a better job at building it. HAHA. Two of the 3 bolts for the mount to the frame line up.

This is the same casting that borgeson uses for there new integral power box for mustangs.

[Bryce]

I cut the hole in the floor right behind the rear seat and just in front of the stock pinion bumpstop for the chassis side 3-link mount. Those pneumatic body saws work so nice. I will have pictures tonight!

[johnny68]

hey bryce looking good looking foward to seeing it in person have a great christmas also we will have to get togeather and make a cruise to jons and look at wheels to order for the nova at the begining of the year
john

[Bryce]

hey bryce looking good looking foward to seeing it in person have a great christmas also we will have to get togeather and make a cruise to jons and look at wheels to order for the nova at the begining of the year
john

Merry Christmas John.

Thanks, its getting there. Hey Im down for a road trip.

[Bryce]

So, I found some shocks that will work great for my application. Thanks to one of the sponsors here. I will post up more info when I place the order.

[Bryce]

Woohoo, I ordered my christmas present yesterday.

[Wesley J]

What did you do for your bumpstop?

I have the stock frame mounted ones. They keep the pinion from hitting anything. I think I'll move them inboard when I minitub this winter.

[Wesley J]

Did I mention this thread is useless without pics ;-)

[6spdcamaro]

So which shocks did you order?

[Bryce]

Did I mention this thread is useless without pics ;-)

Just for you Wesley,

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03502-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/589504)
Hole in the floor looking from inside the car

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03503-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/589505)
Looking from underneath, picture is at a weird angle

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03504-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/589506)
Bracket with the estimated slot centerline.

[Bryce]

I have the stock frame mounted ones. They keep the pinion from hitting anything. I think I'll move them inboard when I minitub this winter.

Cool, I cut the stock ones off. I will be using the ones on the coilovers.

[Bryce]

So which shocks did you order?

I got some from TCI. They are custom built for them. I went 4.25" stroke and double adjustable. I ordered AFCO springs with a 225 rate. I got a note from fedex that they tried to deliver the shocks on friday I was bummed. So I will go pick them up on monday.

[Bryce]

I just sent my wife to FEDEX, hopefully my coilovers are there. Im getting excited.

[Flash68]

Well..... ? :)

[Bryce]

Well..... ? :)


I got them, but i didnt have time to take pictures. I think i will have to wrap them up and wait til christams.

[johnny68]

ok bryce ya done good on this one except its christmas haha

[Bryce]

ok bryce ya done good on this one except its christmas haha

Haha, I cant type, but I can usually spell.

[Wesley J]

A 225 is gonna be stiff but this is mostly a track car right? I dont recall, are you running a rear sway bar? My car is much faster without one.

[Bryce]

A 225 is gonna be stiff but this is mostly a track car right? I dont recall, are you running a rear sway bar? My car is much faster without one.

No rear sway bar yet. But its in the plan if I need one. Higher roll center and a stiffer spring may work better for me right of the box (garage). Yes this car is a street car that was built to perform well on the track and autoX. There is no heater or sound deadener etc. I have tried to make everything as light as I can making the compromises in the streetabilty not the performance.

[Bryce]

Finally the rain is stopping here in san diego. Maybe I can pull the band saw out and cut out my third link brackets this weekend, after CHRISTmas. And an entire week off work, I should be productive.

I got a smoking deal on AFCO springs from speedway. Those showed up yesterday.

[Bryce]

Here are the TCI double adjustable shocks with the afco springs.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03507-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/590889)

The look nice in the box, hopefully they will look nice on the car.

I hope everyone had a great christmas. My family did! my wife cooked christmas dinner for us, her first ever and it was amazazing.

I got a bunch of tools for the new garage.

[johnny68]

looks great bryce cograts on her christmas dinner
john

[elgringo]

Bryce, I've got a '63 falcon that I'm working on right now. I was looking up ideas on how to upgrade the suspension from the 47 year old set-up that it came with, when I ran across your post. Right now I've got a TKO 500 waiting to go in and, some extra aluminum laying around that I'm able to make some other modifications with for now. I noticed that you were in San Diego, and was wondering if it would be alright to come by and see the set-up that you have. It doesn't look like I have near the engineering skills that you have, but it would still be a great help. I'll put some pictures up probably tomorrow.
Incredible job, and thanks for sharing this with everyone.

[454bug]

Hey Bryce,

VERY nice looking set of shocks/springs! You should be able to dial in the handling with them! If they perform as well as they look you should be doing great!

Keep up the GREAT job! It's getting closer and closer... :twothumbs

[Bryce]

Hey Bryce,

VERY nice looking set of shocks/springs! You should be able to dial in the handling with them! If they perform as well as they look you should be doing great!

Keep up the GREAT job! It's getting closer and closer... :twothumbs

Thanks Ray,
They should be better than the afcos I have in front. These are a monotube double adjustable and nitrogen charged.

[Bryce]

Bryce, I've got a '63 falcon that I'm working on right now. I was looking up ideas on how to upgrade the suspension from the 47 year old set-up that it came with, when I ran across your post. Right now I've got a TKO 500 waiting to go in and, some extra aluminum laying around that I'm able to make some other modifications with for now. I noticed that you were in San Diego, and was wondering if it would be alright to come by and see the set-up that you have. It doesn't look like I have near the engineering skills that you have, but it would still be a great help. I'll put some pictures up probably tomorrow.
Incredible job, and thanks for sharing this with everyone.

Thanks Gringo,

Post up some build pictures of your car. I will let you now the next time the car goes out to a local show or an SCCA event.

[Bryce]

Spent some time making brackets today. These are the chassis side of the upper link. They have an arced slot and will be welded to the frame cradle. Not too bad for a bandswaw, drill press and an array of tools for the die grinder.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/tn_full_DSC03508JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/591478)

[Bjkadron]

Spent some time making brackets today. These are the chassis side of the upper link. They have an arced slot and will be welded to the frame cradle. Not too bad for a bandsaw, drill press and an array of tools for the die grinder.



You should have asked me, I could have cut them on a mill... made them pretty! haha!

[Bryce]

Here is a quick update of some progress.

Third link bracket tack welded onto the frame cradle.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03510JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/591620)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03511JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/591621)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03514JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/591622)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03516JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/591623)

[Bryce]

I have one more thing to figure out before I can remove the entire rear suspension and final weld everything. I have been really slow the last few weeks. Too many distractions.

Also, I have been planning a redesign of the front valance. Also I am planning on building a rear valance and still contemplating a wide body stretch.

[srh3trinity]

Also I am planning on building a rear valance and still contemplating a wide body stretch.
Sounds like a no brainer, but drive it some first and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

[strtlegal]

Didn't read everything you posted but why not just make a bracket with a bunch of slots in it much like the one on the top of your diff? I'm just assuming from all the pivoting motions of your rear end I would think it would come loose...Just curious

[Bryce]

Sounds like a no brainer, but drive it some first and enjoy the fruits of your labor.


Yes, this will be down the road. I want to make it to goodguys and drive it over the summer. The some of the bigger projects will be started.

[Bryce]

Didn't read everything you posted but why not just make a bracket with a bunch of slots in it much like the one on the top of your diff? I'm just assuming from all the pivoting motions of your rear end I would think it would come loose...Just curious

The slot is an arc centered around the rear connection of the UCA. The loads are always perpendicular to the slot, therefore there is no force to make the control arm move in the slot when the bolt is tight.

Also the clamping force of the fastener would be enough to keep it from moving.

[chunger]

I'm no suspension expert, but won't that bracket for the upper link see some serious loads from the rearend? How thick are those pieces? Maybe it's just the angle of the photo, but it appears mighty thin.

[Bryce]

I'm no suspension expert, but won't that bracket for the upper link see some serious loads from the rearend? How thick are those pieces? Maybe it's just the angle of the photo, but it appears mighty thin.

Those brackets are 1/8" and they will be boxed in on the bottom and front side.

They will see some high loads the max they will see is 4000lbs. That would be at the drag strip with slicks launching a 5000rpm and not spinning the tires. But 4000lbs is really not that much. A high quality 1/4 diameter fastener can take that load in single shear.

Plus as an engineer, I like to do calculations. So I try make sure nothing I build is too heavy. If I can make every piece lighter then the car tends to be lighter.

[Bryce]

I weighed all the old suspension yesterday, leafs springs with slapper bars and all the hardware, 83lbs.

The new stuff is 55lbs without the brackets on the rearend. So i might end up a little lighter. WooHoo!

[Bjkadron]

Sounds good! I can't wait to see it finished!

[Bjkadron]

Oh! By the way. I found my measurements.

[2blownstangs]

nice work bro. Love the falcons

[GRNOVA]

Bryce, Kinda doing the same thing but on my Nova. Question, Does the middle link need to be parallel to the ground at ride height? Also do the pivot points need to be the same as the lower links?... Please forgive me if the questions are easy as I am not an engineer (only in my head)HAHA! I only get my info from what I read in books and on here.

[strtlegal]

The slot is an arc centered around the rear connection of the UCA. The loads are always perpendicular to the slot, therefore there is no force to make the control arm move in the slot when the bolt is tight.

Also the clamping force of the fastener would be enough to keep it from moving.

Only one way to find out....I wasnt really worried about the load of the suspesion but more of shock to it. I was thinking if your rear end were to take a hard hit of some sort while your axle was compressed more then the other it could possibly move...

But sounds like you got it figured out.

[Bjkadron]

Bryce, Kinda doing the same thing but on my Nova. Question, Does the middle link need to be parallel to the ground at ride height? Also do the pivot points need to be the same as the lower links?... Please forgive me if the questions are easy as I am not an engineer (only in my head)HAHA! I only get my info from what I read in books and on here.

Nothing is simple. Sadly.

If you have Excel There is a nice spreadsheet here that will show you what the different changes do.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204893

also online calculators here:
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/

Pages 18 and 40 should be the most helpful.

[Bryce]

Oh! By the way. I found my measurements.

Cool. I will be starting on that next week. Things are calming down a little! haha.

[Bryce]

nice work bro. Love the falcons

Thanks!

[Bryce]

Only one way to find out....I wasnt really worried about the load of the suspesion but more of shock to it. I was thinking if your rear end were to take a hard hit of some sort while your axle was compressed more then the other it could possibly move...

But sounds like you got it figured out.

Thanks I appreciate the extra set of eyes!

[Bryce]

Bryce, Kinda doing the same thing but on my Nova. Question, Does the middle link need to be parallel to the ground at ride height? Also do the pivot points need to be the same as the lower links?... Please forgive me if the questions are easy as I am not an engineer (only in my head)HAHA! I only get my info from what I read in books and on here.

LCA needs to be parralel at ride height to have neutral roll steer. UCA is angled down towards the front of the car. The lower the front mounting point the more anitsquat you will have and the shorter IC length. My chassis mount for the UCA is slotted so that it adjsutable from 50% to 115% A/S.

[Bryce]

Nothing is simple. Sadly.

If you have Excel There is a nice spreadsheet here that will show you what the different changes do.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204893

also online calculators here:
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/

Pages 18 and 40 should be the most helpful.

Those are good spreadsheets, but I designed my own and actually like it a little better.

[Bjkadron]

Those are good spreadsheets, but I designed my own and actually like it a little better.

Well, Then lets see yours! :D

[Bryce]

Mine would need some explaining to use, so I dont want to just post it out there on the web. But I will email it if you or anyone else wants to look at it.

Mine is designed to use two fixed pickup points and solve for the other two based on A/S and IC location.

[Bryce]

I have a day off work today. So hopefully I can be productive and get some work done to the falcon.

[2blownstangs]

keep the updates comin bro!

[Bryce]

Will do, dont worry about that!

[johnny68]

bryce ill see you on sat at rttc my son jake and i will be up there about 6 prolly at the hotel or the track what time sat. will you be at gate
john

[Bjkadron]

You better get moving if you are going to be at RTTC on Saturday.

[Bryce]

The falcon wont be there. I will though. I am going to volunteer.

BTW, did you get my emails?

[Bryce]

Good progress this weekend, even after the power went off at my dads house and put a stop to any bandswaw use, HAHA.

Too much football is distracting me now. anyway. back to the garage, updated pictures tonight of my boxed in upper third link mount.

[Bjkadron]

The falcon wont be there. I will though. I am going to volunteer.

BTW, did you get my emails?

I noticed that from the other thread. I hopefully will have my duster ready to run at the Nashville speedway event. but we'll see.

I got one e-mail. How many did you send?

And I can't wait for the pics!

[Bryce]

I noticed that from the other thread. I hopefully will have my duster ready to run at the Nashville speedway event. but we'll see.

I got one e-mail. How many did you send?

And I can't wait for the pics!

I sent the second one today.

[Bryce]

Here are the pics of my boxed in third link mount, before welding.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03602JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/594126)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03601JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/594125)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03600JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/594124)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03599JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/594123)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03598JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/594121)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03597JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/594120)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03596JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/594119)

[strtlegal]

Oh well dang Bryce makes alot more sense now...

[Bryce]

Everything is ready for final welding. Then its reassembly time. Wow I am getting close now!

[Bryce]

A day off to work on the car is always awesome!

[Bryce]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/tn_full_DSC03603JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/594898)

One complete 3 link for a falcon.

[LowFast]

Nice, now fab up a kit for me. J/K

[Bjkadron]

One complete 3 link for a falcon.

That is awesome! I bet you are almost giddy at completing it after working on it all this time. how are you going to finish the cradle?

[Bryce]

That is awesome! I bet you are almost giddy at completing it after working on it all this time. how are you going to finish the cradle?

Thanks, I m getting excited thats for sure. I will painting it like I did the front suspension, hammertone gold. It looks close to anodizing.

[Bryce]

Nice, now fab up a kit for me. J/K

HAHA, Actually my first take off is spoken for!

[johnny68]

very nice work Bryce cant wait to see it
john

[Bryce]

Thanks John,

Maybe in another month or so it will be driveable. Then you can see it.