Nascar style spindle/hub swap ?'s

[CanAmNova]

I've been considering using some RHE built nascar or grand national stock car type spindles and hubs on my '72 Nova build and I need to know if this is doable. The spindles are front steer and I was wondering if it would be possible to just swap them left and right and use them as rear steer. The spindles' steering arm has an oval shaped provision for using offset bushings for adjustment. Another hurdle is what balljoints to use. Are there any balljoints with the correct taper that can be used with stock style a-arms? Also, the hubs are 5 on 5 bolt pattern and so if I go with this setup I'll either have to get them redrilled for 5 on 4-3/4 or convert the rear to 5 on 5 using new axles. Anyway, can anyone tell me why this absolutely cannot be done? I would appreciate any advice as I have been kinda stuck pondering this swap for a while now. Thanks, Matt



Here's some pics of the spindles(my actual spindles) and hubs(similar to the one's I have):

[CanAmNova]

Hmmm, 87 views and not a single response... Perhaps it would help if I gave a little info on my goals for the build. I'm building this Nova as a kind of "what if" car. It's going to mimic the original Trans Am series cars complete with a stripped down interior, minilite style rims, and a front suspension based off the stock style (although modified) subframe. It's also going to be powered by a big block with a quad Weber 48 IDA carb setup. Like a Trans Am car powered by a Can Am style engine--hence my handle. I'd like the car to be heavily leaning toward a track only car although I'd like for it to be legal for street use on a very limited basis. However, comfort and everyday streetability are not the priority.

Now, back to the suspension. I'm thinking that if I'm going to go with the above mentioned setup (stock car type spindles) then I will probably end up welding in the upper a-arm mounts for stock car style a-arms so that I can use the correct taper ball joint. However, this is more difficult on the lower arm and that's why I'm wondering if anyone knows if there is a ball joint that can be used with the stock style lower arm but that has the correct taper for the stock car type spindles?

[terryr]

If you flipped the spindles the steering arms would have backwards Ackermann. Which would be weird.

You need to know the ball joint taper to find the interchanges for the a-arms. There only a few types.

[68sixspeed]

pm sent... I have something similar in testing right now but with even bigger bearings...

[greencactus3]

If you flipped the spindles the steering arms would have backwards Ackermann. Which would be weird.

You need to know the ball joint taper to find the interchanges for the a-arms. There only a few types.

aside from parking lot driving, without real tire data i really dont think you can say which ackermann is better, so might be worth a shot

[MickMc]

Nascar stuff would be very cool, tough and there seems to be quite a supply. But some of the parts are going to be Nascar expensive, but used is abundant.


Ball joints should be do-able, race car stuff is limited to only a few sizes. Or you can buy taper reamers, but if you are going to make custom A arms, its just fabrication.

Can you unbolt the steering arms and turn them around. Or just fabricate new steering arms?

(I know Camaro and Chevelle use the same spindle but different steering arms, Camaro rear steer, Chevelle front steer.)

Bolt pattern, how about keeping the very cool 5x5 pattern?

Redrilling a wheel pattern is an easy machine shop operation, but the large bearing hub could be a problem with a 5x 4 3/4 wheel on the big bearing spindle. Maybe not enough material left for a wheel center?


Mick

[David Pozzi]

I have similar stuff on my 69 road race 69 Camaro.
The lower bj is a 727 I think. You can buy weld in lower seat that is threaded for the 727 which is a Chrysler type screw-in. You need a wrench or can make one out of a piece of square tubing welded to a 3/4" socket.

The problem is the steering arm for a rear steer car, not made anymore. Only arms available now are front steer, so if your arms are rear steer you are set, otherwise you may have to make extensions for the front steer type arms to set the tie rods low enough.

Stock upper A arms can be modified to fit the top bj which is usually a late 60's 1/2 ton chevy pickup BJ. There may be a Chrysler screw in one that will work up top too. all tapers should be 7 degrees but yours may have been changed.
David

[CanAmNova]

Thanks very much for the replies everyone. This is all good info.

68sixspeed: "pm sent... I have something similar in testing right now but with even bigger bearings..."

I'd be very interested in hearing about what you come up with--sounds like a bulletproof setup.
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MickMc: "Ball joints should be do-able, race car stuff is limited to only a few sizes. Or you can buy taper reamers, but if you are going to make custom A arms, its just fabrication.

Can you unbolt the steering arms and turn them around. Or just fabricate new steering arms?

(I know Camaro and Chevelle use the same spindle but different steering arms, Camaro rear steer, Chevelle front steer.)

Bolt pattern, how about keeping the very cool 5x5 pattern?

Redrilling a wheel pattern is an easy machine shop operation, but the large bearing hub could be a problem with a 5x 4 3/4 wheel on the big bearing spindle. Maybe not enough material left for a wheel center?"

I was thinking of using a nascar style upper arms, I'd just have to position and weld in the mounts (bolt holes are 6in. apart instead of 6.5in. apart as on stock arms, as I recall). This would give me a great variety of lengths and offsets of arms to choose from and they are fairly inexpensive. Unbolting and flipping the steering arms is not an option on the spindles that I have as they have been modified by RHE, the steering arms are welded and gusseted to the spindle. As for the bolt pattern, yes I am tending toward staying with the 5x5 pattern. I talked to Phil Schmitt from PS Engineering a while ago about having some minilite style wheels made. He seemed to think that he would be able to do it, the problem is not only the bolt pattern but also having a wheel that can accept the large 3in. diameter hub center.
-----

David Pozzi: "I have similar stuff on my 69 road race 69 Camaro.
The lower bj is a 727 I think. You can buy weld in lower seat that is threaded for the 727 which is a Chrysler type screw-in. You need a wrench or can make one out of a piece of square tubing welded to a 3/4" socket.

The problem is the steering arm for a rear steer car, not made anymore. Only arms available now are front steer, so if your arms are rear steer you are set, otherwise you may have to make extensions for the front steer type arms to set the tie rods low enough.

Stock upper A arms can be modified to fit the top bj which is usually a late 60's 1/2 ton chevy pickup BJ. There may be a Chrysler screw in one that will work up top too. all tapers should be 7 degrees but yours may have been changed."

What style arms does your Camaro use David, are they modified stock style or aftermarket? I have seen the weld in insert rings that use the 727 ball joints for the lower arms that you mentioned above for sale from several sources. This is the route that I will probably end up going on the lower arms--it seems like the easiest solution (and besides, I've already boxed in the lower arms for added strength). As for the upper, I was thinking that it would be better to go with a longer arm than stock anyway as the spindles are 9-7/8in. tall and would need a longer arm to correct the camber curve. Am I correct in this assumption?
-----

I freely admit that I have much to learn about suspension geometry and design, that's why info from you guys is so helpful.

[David Pozzi]

David Pozzi[/B]: "I have similar stuff on my 69 road race 69 Camaro.
The lower bj is a 727 I think. You can buy weld in lower seat that is threaded for the 727 which is a Chrysler type screw-in. You need a wrench or can make one out of a piece of square tubing welded to a 3/4" socket.

The problem is the steering arm for a rear steer car, not made anymore. Only arms available now are front steer, so if your arms are rear steer you are set, otherwise you may have to make extensions for the front steer type arms to set the tie rods low enough. They should also angle inward so a line drawn from balljoint to tie rod end, to center of differential all line up. This gives Ackerman steering correction.

Stock upper A arms can be modified to fit the top bj which is usually a late 60's 1/2 ton chevy pickup BJ. There may be a Chrysler screw in one that will work up top too. all tapers should be 7 degrees but yours may have been changed."

What style arms does your Camaro use David, are they modified stock style or aftermarket? I have seen the weld in insert rings that use the 727 ball joints for the lower arms that you mentioned above for sale from several sources. This is the route that I will probably end up going on the lower arms--it seems like the easiest solution (and besides, I've already boxed in the lower arms for added strength). As for the upper, I was thinking that it would be better to go with a longer arm than stock anyway as the spindles are 9-7/8in. tall and would need a longer arm to correct the camber curve. Am I correct in this assumption?
-----

I freely admit that I have much to learn about suspension geometry and design, that's why info from you guys is so helpful.

The steering arm is a Stock Car Products part. It's a rear steer arm, and very long, longer than stock steering arms. The arm also has the lower balljoint taper on it and bolts to the spindle with two bolts. This is a pretty common NASCAR spindle type, but there are small variations. I think it's forged chrome molly material.

My upper arms are stock type with the balljoint seat area cut out and a larger pocket welded in. I think it's a piece of angle iron or section of square tubing in an "L" shape.

I wouldn't change arm length, there isn't room anyway. I would look at arm angle and run a curve on it. There are several different heights of those spindles, so I can't say mine are exactly the same as yours. Is your height from flat to flat? I'll compare to mine.
I expect some large loss of steering ratio with the long arms, haven't gotten the car running yet though.
David
http://www.stockcarproducts.com/ftsusp.htm

[CanAmNova]

The steering arm is a Stock Car Products part. It's a rear steer arm, and very long, longer than stock steering arms. The arm also has the lower balljoint taper on it and bolts to the spindle with two bolts. This is a pretty common NASCAR spindle type, but there are small variations. I think it's forged chrome molly material.

My upper arms are stock type with the balljoint seat area cut out and a larger pocket welded in. I think it's a piece of angle iron or section of square tubing in an "L" shape.

I wouldn't change arm length, there isn't room anyway. I would look at arm angle and run a curve on it. There are several different heights of those spindles, so I can't say mine are exactly the same as yours. Is your height from flat to flat? I'll compare to mine.
I expect some large loss of steering ratio with the long arms, haven't gotten the car running yet though.
David
http://www.stockcarproducts.com/ftsusp.htm

David, the height measurement I gave (9-7/8 inch) is overall height from outside flat to outside flat of spindle. Changing steering arms is not an option for me with this current setup as the arms have been TIG welded and gusseted to the main part of the spindle (in addition to the two large mounting bolts). As far as changing length of arms, I was referring to going with a longer upper a-arm to compensate for the additional height of the spindle (over the stock height) to correct the camber curve. Am I correct in thinking that the camber curve would be too aggressive if I tried to use the stock length upper a-arms with spindles that are much taller than stock spindles? Thanks again for your assistance.

[chevelletiger]

I know this is an old post,but how did it turn out??

[andrewb70]

I know this is an old post,but how did it turn out??

OP has not logged on in over a year.

Andrew