One Piece wheels VS. Three Piece wheels.... Help Please

[Fesler built]

I own Fesler Built and we also have a wheel line built by Asanti wheels, I have 7 wheels in the Fesler line now but can change any of my centers to what Asanti wheels have so there are like over 60 wheels to choose from.

The three piece wheels are very strong, easy to take care of and clean up quick. I have been running them on my cars now for about 4 years and have not bent a wheel yet. I can get any color or finish you can think off. The great thing about the three piece wheels is if in a year or so you want to change them its just a matter of changing out the center and that only takes a week you dont have to order a complete new wheel and wait for ever to get them again. Or if for some reason you curb a wheel you can get the otter hoop fixed in a few days for a couple hundred bucks, not the cost of the wheel again and weeks to fix.

With that being said, how are some of the billet companies staying in business with how long they take to get people wheels? For instance I bought a set of one piece billet wheels (wont mention company) 19X10F & 19X12.5R and it took over 12 weeks to get them. :ripped: Reason it takes them so long to do it is most of the companies have to send them out to go wide. I can do this same wheel for less money in a 3rd of the time. :twothumbs its all done in house so no down time waiting for someone.

So my questions to you guys is I want to figure out how to make the three piece stuff more of a first option for you guys. Most of the PT style cars are having a hard time getting into the three peice stuff. If you look at all the billet companies making wheels you can get into a three piece wheel for almost the same cost and if its a wide wheel they end up being cheaper and faster to get.

Most of the billet wheels out there today are soft, dent easy and a pain in the butt to keep clean not to mention they take months to get. No joke there :hammer:

As for the three piece stuff you can pretty much do any offset, size and style you want depending on fitments like brakes and stuff. We do most of our cars with three piece wheels on them and we usually have the wheels with in three weeks.

I know I dont have the styles that everyone wants and that is not the reason for the post, I would like some input as to how to get the three piece stuff more popular with these guys. The prices are not that far off and the quality is 10 times better. Please help

[Vegas69]

It has to be price. I can't see any other reason not to go with a three piece wheel. As you mentioned I have already had to modify my rear wheels, and I will probably widen my fronts in the future. A last minute change to a different subframe allows me to run more rubber. I am glad I bought the three piece wheels.:naughty:

[JV69z/28]

I'll agree with price also. When you want to go 18s or bigger, wider than 10s, and start customizing with brushed finishes, powder coating, ect the price gets crazy. If you have the funds to build a 100K+ car to spend 5K - 7K or more for wheels and tires is no big deal but if you're building on a budget of 35K - 50K car you have to think long and hard before spending more than 10% on rolling stock. I'll be the 1st to realize there is a whole lot of people out there with big money and that's great but they can buy anything they want. I don't think the "masses" even consider the high end wheels because they are just out of reach for the regular 15K to 30K nothing special muscle car/hot rod guy. I think it's like any other high end item - if more people could afford them the sales volume would be higher. Just MHO I'm sure others wil differ.

[Boesch]

It's price. The price of three piece wheel parts and the extra assembly time drives the price out of reach for most people. Let's not forget the middle man factor. If you're not buying factory direct...that guy in the middle is tacking on his share of profit. That's why Intro doesn't have any wheel dealers. As far as time to deliver wheels goes, we are generally at about 4-5 weeks of build time, and if you talk to most of our customers they'll say they actually got their wheels a bit faster than that.

Just kinda curious as to why you say this statement:
"Most of the billet wheels out there today are soft, dent easy and a pain in the butt to keep clean..."
Our two and three piece billet wheels are all made from Aircraft grade forged aluminum. A two piece wheel isn't any softer and doesn't dent any easier than a three piece wheel. And if we're going to talk about hard to clean, let's talk about cleaning rivets on a three piece wheel.

[aray327]

Price, price, price. Did I mention its the price? I believe wheel companies believe there is no other option and we should be happy to spend $3,000+ on a set of wheels. Then you consider powder coating, why would a wheel company charge me $300 for something I can get done for $100? Chrome, its the same thing. I'm all for making money and don't suggest you lose your shirt, but have you ever heard of supply and demand, when the price goes down the demand goes up! Give me a good product at a reasonable price and I'm there.

[buickfunnycar.com]

Price, price, price. Did I mention its the price? I believe wheel companies believe there is no other option and we should be happy to spend $3,000+ on a set of wheels. Then you consider powder coating, why would a wheel company charge me $300 for something I can get done for $100? Chrome, its the same thing. I'm all for making money and don't suggest you loose your shirt, but have you ever heard of supply and demand, when the price goes down the demand goes up! Give me a good product at a reasonable price and I'm there.


well stated...

[PRRC]

The statment about dealing direct is just crap!! We save countless customers money every day. The reason you dont have dealers is you dont want them. We can sell the wheel lines we carry as low or lower than a set of Intros!
Tim
It's price. The price of three piece wheel parts and the extra assembly time drives the price out of reach for most people. Let's not forget the middle man factor. If you're not buying factory direct...that guy in the middle is tacking on his share of profit. That's why Intro doesn't have any wheel dealers. As far as time to deliver wheels goes, we are generally at about 4-5 weeks of build time, and if you talk to most of our customers they'll say they actually got their wheels a bit faster than that.

Just kinda curious as to why you say this statement:
"Most of the billet wheels out there today are soft, dent easy and a pain in the butt to keep clean..."
Our two and three piece billet wheels are all made from Aircraft grade forged aluminum. A two piece wheel isn't any softer and doesn't dent any easier than a three piece wheel. And if we're going to talk about hard to clean, let's talk about cleaning rivets on a three piece wheel.

[The WidowMaker]

it seems today that instead of the manufactures selling for a lower price when there is no middle man, they instead sell the item for the same price as everyone else and just make more profit. the market is driven by the consumer, and sometimes the consumer will pay more because they think they are getting more.

since i really dont have any experience, can someone explain to me why a 3 piece or even a 2 piece is more expensive than a 1 piece? it seems to me that a one piece uses and wastes more metal and would require more machining and therefore be more expensive.

i do understand that a 3 piece can save some money when sizes are choosen incorrectly, but how much is charged per wheel to make them right? what is the cost difference btwn a 2 and 3 piece wheel on the average?

my theory, choose the right wheels the first time and avoid having to rebuy or rework.

[vp23271]

since i really dont have any experience, can someone explain to me why a 3 piece or even a 2 piece is more expensive than a 1 piece? it seems to me that a one piece uses and wastes more metal and would require more machining and therefore be more expensive.


I agree 100% with 430hp70

I have owned both 1 piece and 3 piece rims and like both.

My choice comes down to price, style and strength (mfg process).

As far as keeping wheels clean, a 3 piece with exposed hardware is more time consuming to keep clean. Curb rash is easier to remedy with a 3 piece, but many have a hollow lip. A big enuf pot hole with a 35 series tire is gonna do some damage no mater if it's a 1 piece or 3 piece.

A 1 piece starts with a much larger "hunk" of metal and spend more time on the CNC machine to remove all this metal. The centers on a 3 piece are much shallower and have less steps to mfg and spend less time on the CNC machine.

Why don't the 3 piece wheels reflect a larger price difference (lower)?

Strength and quality is a whole different issue. Each wheel mfg needs to be held to is't own standards. Not all 3 piece wheels are the same and neither are 1 piece.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Fesler summed it up pretty well but may not have been clear enough for some. So at the risk of being a echo............

A few of the benefits are with a 3 piece wheels are:

Stonger and lighter shells. Not all, but most of the better 3 piece wheels outer shells are often made of stronger and lighter material like 6061-T6 aluminum, Lighter is better!

Forged centers: The centers of most 3 piece wheeels are forged meaning they are stronger instead of machined billet, and the centers can be lighter because more material can be removed and still be strong, Lighter is better!

Repair. When you get up into larger diameter wheels and lower profile tires, your exposing the rim to more potential for damage. Pot holes are hell on low profile large diamter wheel / tire combos. A 3 piece 6061-T6 shell will be a lot more resistant to bending and if it does get bent, you send it in have a shell changed and your rolling.

Wide wheels: 18" and 19" drums, the outer shell (drum), are made in sizes up to 10" width only, so if doing a 12" (2) piece welded wheel, instead of having a 2 piece welded wheel (RE: center welded into a drum), you end up with a sliced shell with a 2" band added to it, so you have a welded in center and 2 ring welds around the drum. Not the hot set up! My experiance trying to balacne multi welded 12" wheels with 335s has not been that the welded wheels do not balance as good as 3 piece wheels.

Cost: If your doing a 12" wheel, figure on a $400 to $500 per wheel fee for the added strap of widening material. And if you add the $1000 to the cost of the wheels, you will usually find yourself within striking difference of a racing quality 3 piece wheel. I am not into up selling products, but when I have a customer doing 12" wheels, I usually highly suggest speding the extra change for the 3 piece.

Changes: And as Fesler said, making changes to the wheels is simple. Most of us have short attention spans and style change. In a couple days I will post up some pictures of Michaels Monte Carlo SS we finished up last year at this time. We removed the centers from his wheels, striped the chrome from the centers for $75 and painted the centers magic black to match the top color on the car. After one year, we totally changed the look of the car for a net cost of a few hundred dollars.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Let's not forget the middle man factor. If you're not buying factory direct...that guy in the middle is tacking on his share of profit. That's why Intro doesn't have any wheel dealers.

I have no problem with your product and am not starting a pissing match, but the above stament is just wrong. Every wheel company I deal with sells the wheels for a suggested retail which is more then their dealers sell for, that is industry standard. This is how any manufacturer worth it's weight protects their dealers. If the manfacturer unders sells their dealers, then it is useless to have dealers. I have found your comparable wheels to be the same or more $$$$ then wheels we sell, apples to apples.



Just kinda curious as to why you say this statement:
"Most of the billet wheels out there today are soft, dent easy and a pain in the butt to keep clean..."
Our two and three piece billet wheels are all made from Aircraft grade forged aluminum. A two piece wheel isn't any softer and doesn't dent any easier than a three piece wheel.

So are your 3 piece wheels built with 6061-T6 shells like Forgeline, Fiske, etc? If so does this mean you use 6061-T6 drums on your welded 2 piece wheels? if your not using 6061T6 shells, they are not as strong.

[The WidowMaker]

prodigy - thanks for that help, but a few more questions. you said the billet hoops were strong and light, but then stated that the forged centers were strong and light. which is stronger and lighter; billet or forged? if forged is both stronger and lighter, does anyone make a fully forged 3 piece wheel?

what about wheels under 10"? that was a very good argument for 12's, but what about the smaller wheels?

the difference btwn a 2 piece and 3 piece from the same company is roughly $400 per wheel. how is that justified? where is all of my extra money going?

thanks, Tim

[Fesler built]

I guess this was a good thing to post up here to inform people of wheels.

Well said ProdigyCustoms, my wheels are made from Asanti and they use the highest quality metals you can buy on every product they sale. They are a completly forged wheel all parts so they are super strong.

I run 25 series tires on Tahoes and Luxurys sedans and have not bent a wheel yet and they weight more than most of the cars on this site with billet wheels. That alone proves how strong our wheels are.

As for the cleaning statment from Boesch well he has a point the rivets can be a pain but if you blow them out or run around the block real quick to get the water out you just dry and they look new. A polished billet wheel is a pain in the butt to keep clean and you have to polishe them a few times a year.

I can do a 18X8 - 18X12, 19X8 - 19X12, 20X12 and so on 3 piece wheel with a powdercoated center (black, silver or gun metal) standard for about $3600-$4000 depending on finish a set under 20-inch, what is Budnik, Intro, Billet Specialties, Boze and so on charge for that same wheel and why do they charge more to do that finish. How about Fikse and HRE what are they charging.

If you want to go to a strong three piece wheel that will out last a one piece wheel PM me for a price, I might be able to get close to what you are going to pay for the other brands.

here are a few samples of cars with low profile tires

25 series tires
http://www.feslerbuilt.com/2007LexusLS460L.htm

http://www.feslerbuilt.com/2004Chevy1500.htm

30 Series tires
http://www.feslerbuilt.com/1969CAMAROBLK.htm

http://www.feslerbuilt.com/1966MustangGT.htm

http://www.feslerbuilt.com/1949MERC.htm

http://www.feslerbuilt.com/1969redcamaro.htm

[The WidowMaker]

how is a forged aluminum wheel any easier to clean than a billet wheel?

i guess i was always misinformed, because i thought the billet were better than the forged. i always thought that billet metal, whether steel, alum, etc..., was stronger than forged. i understand the process, but i didnt think the forging was what made metal strong. actually i thought forging weakened the metal and it needed to be tempered to bring it back to the desired properties (strength vs hardness ). billet metal has the proper grain structure, which i though led to strength

Tim

[Steve1968LS2]

Most manufacturers don't want to sell direct, they would much rather have a dealer network to sell and avoid the hassles.

For this reason they typically sell stuff at an MSRP price which is higher than you can get at a dealer. Go look at the prices at a company like COMP Cams and they shop around and you will see what I mean. It's the same thing as most wheel companies.

Billet is an often misused term. I only means that the item was made out of one single piece of metal. It has nothing to do with strength, except to say that it's not a "cast" wheel. The term "forged" does have strength implied, but it's important to see what the wheel is forged from in regards to the metal used. Not all "forged" wheels are created equal.

Personally, I change offsets so much that, for me, a three-piece wheel only makes sense. For example I will be sending in my 18x9 fronts soon to have them made into 18x10s. This means they only have to swap out the inner hoops. Sure cheaper than buying a whole new wheel.

[Fesler built]

Its the finish, all or our wheel lips are chrome not polished so they are a quick clean. no polishing


fesler - thanks for that explanation. those are some good prices on 3 piece wheels.

how is a forged aluminum wheel any easier to clean than a billet wheel?

i guess i was always misinformed, because i thought the billet were better than the forged. i always thought that billet metal, whether steel, alum, etc..., was stronger than forged. i understand the process, but i didnt think the forging was what made metal strong. actually i thought forging weakened the metal and it needed to be tempered to bring it back to the desired properties (strength vs hardness ). billet metal has the proper grain structure, which i though led to strength

Tim

[The WidowMaker]

thanks guys, that explains most of it.

steve - you have one bad ass car, but one bad ass budget as well. i do see how the 3 piece works for you, but why are you going to a 10"? i saw your car at the goodguys show and it looked perfect the way it was.

fesler - how does your chrome hold up compared to the polished? i know the polished needs to be polished, but ive had bad experiences with chrome wheels. maybe its just quality issues.

[Steve1968LS2]

Because there's too big of a differential between the 255 fronts and the 335 rears I'm running. Generally you want the rears just a touch bigger than the fronts (example, 285 and 315)

The smaller fronts contribute to understeer. A little more front tire will help and will the give the car a more balanced look.

The three piecer WC3s I run cost well under $1000 a wheel.. not cheap but not an insane price for the quality.

[TonyL]

Did anyone say it's the cost of three piece wheels yet? For me, Three piece wheels are the "brass ring" of wheels. Most choose one piece cast wheels because they are around 800 to 1200 a set. As I've said before, I'd run three piece wheels if I could afford them. I think we all would.

[Boesch]

So are your 3 piece wheels built with 6061-T6 shells like Forgeline, Fiske, etc? If so does this mean you use 6061-T6 drums on your welded 2 piece wheels? if your not using 6061T6 shells, they are not as strong.

Are you aware of how many companies that there are that make the outer hoops? Ever wonder why no billet wheel company offers a 12" wide 18" two piece wheel? We all buy our hoops from the same companies.

[Boesch]

Its the finish, all or our wheel lips are chrome not polished so they are a quick clean. no polishing


I'd agree with the Chrome being a lot easier to keep up and keep clean.

[Boesch]

I can do a 18X8 - 18X12, 19X8 - 19X12, 20X12 and so on 3 piece wheel with a powdercoated center (black, silver or gun metal) standard for about $3600-$4000 depending on finish a set under 20-inch, what is Budnik, Intro, Billet Specialties, Boze and so on charge for that same wheel and why do they charge more to do that finish. How about Fikse and HRE what are they charging.


Our 18" 3 piece wheels start at $3000 a set. That's for full polish and it's $300 a set to powdercoat the centers, so we're looking at about the same price at the end of the day. Unfortunately $3K on a set of rims is above and beyond most peoples budgets. People were liking a lot of the three piece styles, but not the three piece price, thus why we started offering the 3 piece styles in 2 piece.

[Boesch]

The statment about dealing direct is just crap!! We save countless customers money every day. The reason you dont have dealers is you dont want them. We can sell the wheel lines we carry as low or lower than a set of Intros!
Tim

I don't know if I'd call that statement crap. Are you aware that we had a dealer network originally? It is true that we don't want dealers anymore and keeping costs down to the consumer is one of the reasons we no longer have them. There's a reason we can sell a set of 17" billet wheels for under $1200 a set (and yes that price is listed on our website).

[PRRC]

Yes, I am aware that at one time you had a dealer program. We looked in to it. Was'nt a good fit for us.
And I still say we can meet or beat your pricinging any day of the week!

[Boesch]

Yes, I am aware that at one time you had a dealer program. We looked in to it. Was'nt a good fit for us.
And I still say we can meet or beat your pricinging any day of the week!

Ha ha...not on a set of Intro's you can't :) I'm not here to argue price.

To get back on the original topic...as most people have stated here, three piece wheels are just to darn expensive.

[Vegas69]

Because there's too big of a differential between the 255 fronts and the 335 rears I'm running. Generally you want the rears just a touch bigger than the fronts (example, 285 and 315)

The smaller fronts contribute to understeer. A little more front tire will help and will the give the car a more balanced look.

The three piecer WC3s I run cost well under $1000 a wheel.. not cheap but not an insane price for the quality.

Steve, I am in the same boat as you. I have a 255 on a 8.5 rim and will end up sending them out for a 9.5-10. Haven't decided on right away or waiting to put some miles on her. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the difference in feel on the street and track.
This probably isn't my business, but I'm going to give you my opinion from the other side of the fence. Having a pissing match between wheel manufacturers and dealers isn't going to earn you business. You guys should call it a day before you turn off some potential customers. When I bought my wheels, I was looking for my favorite design. It's not all about price and who has the hardest wheel hoops. One thing that needs to be considered when choosing who you buy your wheels from is their experience. I knew with my custom set up I couldn't call Boze. I called Frank at Prodigy since he knows the Pro-touring cars as well as anyone. I am sure the other dealers are competent as well.

[ProdigyCustoms]

.

Our two and three piece billet wheels are all made from Aircraft grade forged aluminum. A two piece wheel isn't any softer and doesn't dent any easier than a three piece wheel.

Yes I am aware that all the hoops come from the same places. So because of the above state,emt, I was not clear and I was asking, is your 3 piece wheel made with 6061-T6? There is NON 6061-T6 3 piece shells around which are no wheres near the strentgh and are heavier then 6061-T6 meaning all 3 piece wheels are by no means created equal.

Because you said in the quoter above "Our 2 piece and 3 piece wheels are all made from Aircraft grade aluminum". Or do you use something different then 6061-T6?

A NON 6061-T6 shell will dent much easier then a true 6061-T6 shell

[Boesch]

They are 6061 T6.

[ProdigyCustoms]

They are 6061 T6.

On the 2 piece?

[PRRC]

Yep, Your right about that! Did'nt want them then and would'nt want them now.
Ha ha...not on a set of Intro's you can't :) I'm not here to argue price.

To get back on the original topic...as most people have stated here, three piece wheels are just to darn expensive.

[gmjj13]

i started my search for wheels with finding a design i liked. there are so many different designs out there, it'll make your head spin. then came the price...i found out quick that 3 piece wheels were well out of my budget, but was lucky enough to find that the same design could be had in a 2 piece wheel. the 2 piece were still more expensive than i had hoped, but i got hooked up with a good deal. if i could afford it, i would have bought the 3 piece wheels, but i'm still happy with what i have. basically for me, it all boiled down to price.

just my .02

[Fesler built]

The chrome is perfect and we have not had a problem with it in the past 5 years. If something goes bad we will fix it no problems unless you cause the problems.


thanks guys, that explains most of it.

steve - you have one bad ass car, but one bad ass budget as well. i do see how the 3 piece works for you, but why are you going to a 10"? i saw your car at the goodguys show and it looked perfect the way it was.

fesler - how does your chrome hold up compared to the polished? i know the polished needs to be polished, but ive had bad experiences with chrome wheels. maybe its just quality issues.

[TonyL]

This has to be one of our more interesting threads in a while. I don't recall a time when as many sponsors were debating as heavily in a thread.
In the interest of keeping things on topic though, Im going to insist we keep this thread from deteriorating.

So vendors:

The consensus has been that the price has to come down. Is that possible? Is there a way to get these rims competitive with 2 and 1 piece wheels? One of you vendors will find out a way. When you do, the buyers will line up.

[The WidowMaker]

i guess i still dont understand why a 3 piece is more than a 2 piece. i dont care about the advantages of the 3 piece, but rather just what makes it cost so much more. a 2 piece requires the labor of welding, and a 3 piece the labor to assemble. wheres my money going?

[ProdigyCustoms]

I agree Tony. I only want to be sure we compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. If there is a difference in wheels (and there is), the members here need to know this. I think Feslers original intention for the thread is well intended, and I appoligze for even touching the price subject, and I personally have jumped off that subject .

I still do not know though if the 2 piece wheels by Intro use the same 6061-T6 material as the 3 piece wheels? And I think members should know since it was said they were the same material. I might be wrong but I am fairly certain they are different materials.

At the end of the day, comparing a forged 3 piece wheel to a welded billet 2 piece wheel is like comparing a Volkswagon to a Mercedes because they are both made in Germany! While both are cars and will get you where your going, there is a HUGE difference in quality!

[ProdigyCustoms]

i guess i still dont understand why a 3 piece is more than a 2 piece. i dont care about the advantages of the 3 piece, but rather just what makes it cost so much more. a 2 piece requires the labor of welding, and a 3 piece the labor to assemble. wheres my money going?

Materials are higher quality = more money
Labor is more to build = more money

[TonyL]

Good analogy Frank.

[PRRC]

Tony, Your right. I was the first to respond in a negative manner. A I apologize to Fesler for jacking up his thread. We usually don't get caught up in the my Dads better than your Dad threads. But that statement about buying direct was a cheap shot at all other sponsors on the board. So with that said we now direct you back to your regular programming.LOL.
Tim

[TonyL]

No prob guys. Everyone's passion about what they offer is what makes this a great industry to be a part of. When you have as many sponsors as we do, you're bound to have a few debates now and then.

[MarkM66]

"With that being said, how are some of the billet companies staying in business with how long they take to get people wheels? "

Because people buy what looks good, and what they like. If they have their mind set on a certain wheel, they're willing to wait for it.

[Boesch]

On the 2 piece?

Yes they are.

[Boesch]

Sorry to the vendors on here....didn't mean to speak bad about them when referring to the middle man. That wasn't my intention. We've taken the decision to not have dealers after having them in the past. Clearly I can see it was taken that way by some forum vendors and I'm sorry and apologize to them.



To 430 hp 70, here's why our three piece are more expensive than a two piece:

Two piece = Single rim hoop and single forged center that are welded together. welding is a pretty simple process and doesn't take long.

Three piece = Two rim hoops, forged center, and many titanium bolts. The assembly process is done by hand and is very time consuming. Each rivet is hand torqued in a specific pattern. Once the three pieces are together they are sealed around the outside to ensure no air leakage.

So at the end of the day, there are more parts and pieces in a 3 piece that requires more manual labor time. Therefore a higher price.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Yes they are.

Awesome, did not know that. Thank You.

[TonyL]

Might annealing(sp?) from the welding process be a factor for those complaining that two piece wheels are easier to bend? Or do they re temper them after they are welded?

/really doesn't know.
//Good info so far in the thread though.

[aray327]

All this debate is great! But it looks to me like all the dealers and manufactuers have very carefully avoided dealing with the issue. Price, Price, Price.

I can't believe there is sooo little profit in a $3,000 set of wheels that you can't bring that price down.

If the profit were so little, why is the manufacuter selling for the full retail price? Why can't consumers take advantage of that savings?

Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right! Set the new trend in price. I'm betting there is $1,000 in true profit in a set of each of these high dollar wheels.

Quit the debates amongst other dealers and deal with us, THE CONSUMER. Remember we are the reason each of you is in business.

I am looking for wheels right at this moment. I have high hopes of purchasing a set of wheels this week. All of you guys have wheels I would like to own, but each of you has been tip-toeing around the price issue. I would bet there are several others in my same boat.

[Fesler built]

Actually there is not that much room in them that is why they are so hard to sale. For example a set of 19-inch Fesler FS 901 wheels will retail for $1100 each in a standard gloss black, silver or gun metal. I will sale this wheel for just about $900.00 each so as you can see I am passing the savings along to you guys. I am lucky to make a few hundred dollars on a set of wheels after all the BS of ordering and shipping.....

There are some guys that can buy more so they get a better deal on parts, so that is why they can sometimes beat other prices out there. I can only afford to buy so much so I cant get the huge discounts like larger companies can.

I did not start this thread to cause a problem but to only find out why someone will pay the same amount for a Billet wheel that is softer and will take up to 8-10 weeks to get or longer I have waiting 14 weeks for wheels. I can do anything in the wide ranges fast and I know that not all can afford the three piece stuff but if you are having something custom built from Budnik, Boze or others you can.

Jon from Drivers Inc should jump in here and help explain what is going on with all the wheel companies, he sales alot of wheels and worked at Budnik for years.


All this debate is great! But it looks to me like all the dealers and manufactuers have very carefully avoided dealing with the issue. Price, Price, Price.

I can't believe there is sooo little profit in a $3,000 set of wheels that you can't bring that price down.

If the profit were so little, why is the manufacuter selling for the full retail price? Why can't consumers take advantage of that savings?

Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right! Set the new trend in price. I'm betting there is $1,000 in true profit in a set of each of these high dollar wheels.

Quit the debates amongst other dealers and deal with us, THE CONSUMER. Remember we are the reason each of you is in business.

I am looking for wheels right at this moment. I have high hopes of purchasing a set of wheels this week. All of you guys have wheels I would like to own, but each of you has been tip-toeing around the price issue. I would bet there are several others in my same boat.

[Boesch]

Might annealing(sp?) from the welding process be a factor for those complaining that two piece wheels are easier to bend? Or do they re temper them after they are welded?

/really doesn't know.
//Good info so far in the thread though.

Welding does indeed locally affect the strength of the rim. Most of the welding on a two piece wheel should be done in an area though that doesn't affect strength. On those widths that are custom made, such as a 12" width because no one makes a 12" wide hoop, it can make a larger difference. It depends if you widen a hoop (2 welds on each side of a strip that's added) or if you use two hoops to make one (one weld in the center).

There are two different styles of hoops for two piece wheels as well. The stepped lip and the rolled lip. They very greatly in bending stiffness simply due to geometry.

[The WidowMaker]

i would then assume that the stepped lip has greater strength. each bend should add strength, just a a bead does in a flat sheet of steel. correct?

i thought all of the materials were the same in the high end stuff. 6061 for the hoops and center sections and its all forged.

[rjsjea]

Why arent a couple more companies investing in making their own hoops if only a couple companies produce them........I realize most wheel companies dont own aluminum plants but....

I am sure China will be producing hoops soon enough...:eek:

Great thread, as I am in the market for a 3pc wheel with the rears being 12" wide.

[vp23271]

I am sure China will be producing hoops soon enough...:eek:


I would not be surprised if China is where we are getting the hoops now. :hand:

[Boesch]

I would not be surprised if China is where we are getting the hoops now. :hand:

Nope...all of our hoops and forgings are made in the USA. :usa:

[vp23271]

Nope...all of our hoops and forgings are made in the USA. :usa:

That is good to hear!

[1offwizard]

As a VERY SMALL fish in the billet community I can tell you for certain that my cost on a set of wheels has gone up 17% in the last 20 months. We have had only a marginal increase in our wheel prices and have not increased the price of our steering wheels in 8 years. It is a constant struggle to stay out of the red, but I tell people all the time I only do this to go to shows and see the cars!

[Nine Ball]

Intro makes nice wheels, I was happy with my two previous sets. Not everyone needs ultra-light racing wheels (Fikse, Forgeline) or the costs that go with those. I kind of smirk about guys spending the extra bucks on some racing wheels and put them on a 13-second car. It is very obvious that hardly anyone buys wheels based on purpose, it is more about the appearance. If I can find a lower priced 2-piece wheel that fits the theme I'm after, I'm not going to complain that it isn't 3-piece or that it doesn't have titanium hardware. I just want the wheels to be well built and look nice, just like the majority of wheel buyers.

3-piece wheels simply cost more. To some, this fits their budget. I sell 2 and 3 piece wheels, but always try to recommend the lower priced 2-piece version if the buyer isn't building a road race car. I see guys installing mini-tubs to stick a 12" wheel under the car, but they don't narrow the rear axle and the net result is the outward appearance still looks like you have a 10" wheel with the factory backspacing. You could just narrow the axle and run a deep dish 10" wheel if you want the look. Does a 13-second car really need a 345 wide tire? lol

Hate to say it, but 75% of pro-touring is about appearance. Most of these cars aren't built to perform to the limits of the hardware being installed. That goes for wheels too.

Tony

[Vegas69]

Couldn't agree more.

[DriverzInc]

Actually there is not that much room in them that is why they are so hard to sale. For example a set of 19-inch Fesler FS 901 wheels will retail for $1100 each in a standard gloss black, silver or gun metal. I will sale this wheel for just about $900.00 each so as you can see I am passing the savings along to you guys. I am lucky to make a few hundred dollars on a set of wheels after all the BS of ordering and shipping.....

There are some guys that can buy more so they get a better deal on parts, so that is why they can sometimes beat other prices out there. I can only afford to buy so much so I can’t get the huge discounts like larger companies can.

I did not start this thread to cause a problem but to only find out why someone will pay the same amount for a Billet wheel that is softer and will take up to 8-10 weeks to get or longer I have waiting 14 weeks for wheels. I can do anything in the wide ranges fast and I know that not all can afford the three piece stuff but if you are having something custom built from Budnik, Boze or others you can.

Jon from Drivers Inc should jump in here and help explain what is going on with all the wheel companies, he sales alot of wheels and worked at Budnik for years.

Okay, you called me out, and I'll stop just reading this thread in silence and contribute. There are SO many good points to touch on here...

First, let's all remember that we, dealers, AND manufacturer's are here to make a living selling wheels. So approach this thinking like a business man a little more, and less like a consumer, who thinks parts, widgets, wheels, should be sold at cost to build. If we did this, none of us would be here and produce wheels for you all to buy. We have mouths to feed, rent to pay on our buildings, CNC's to buy, maintain, employees, health benefits for said employees, etc. So, I can tell you with our Rushforth Line, of course there is profit in each wheel sale, but that profit goes to all of the for-mentioned, not direct into our personal bank accounts. For example, I have no problem in saying that since I've started Driverz, Inc., I have yet to write myself any type of paycheck or profit sharing check. It all gets rolled back into the company. Thank God my wife works. And understands that someday maybe after all this hard work, I will be able to draw a pay check for my time. But for now, it's all initial investment.

Second, outer hoops in a two piece billet wheel are made out of two grades of aluminum these days. Before, they were all rolled out of 5054 grade aluminum, across the board, until a new company early last year came to the table with a 6061-t6 not rolled, but pressed hoop. They are also offering that same hoop now in 18x12, 20x12, and 20x15. So in the early days, us manufacturer's were having to weld two outer 10" hoops together to go wide, but now this newer company has alleviated having to do a lot of that. However, recently that said company is up and moving plants to California, and it's recently been hard to get product from them, so we're all relying on our past resources for the time being, as alot of wheel manufacturer's are running out of stock. Speaking of stock,

Three piece wheels require more labor and more stocking parts to build. For example, in your two piece, the center section can be just dropped in to a desired width outer and welded to the ordered offset.... in Three piece, to get offsets, not only are you having to mill down the pad lengths to get the correct offset (so now you have more machine time), manufacturers are also having to stock front AND back rim shells in all kinds of different increments to gain offset. So now, say a two piece manufacturer who normally stocks say 200 rim shells in an 18x10, now has to stock an exponential amount of 18" diameter front and rear shells. So more stocking parts, means more $$ out of manufacturer's pocket, equals again more money to produce, and ultimately the need to retail for a higher amount.

I also read a comment about powder coating, and the 300 dollar charge. Hardly any wheel manufacturers, other than HRE, powder coat in house. It's an outside process, which requires transporting wheel centers to the powder coater, and back to the manufacturer, paying for gas, truck, driver, to and from the vendor. So sure if you drove your own wheels out to the powder coater, you may pay a little less, but are you considering gas back and forth to the powder coater, and your own time which would be paid to a laborer to do that work? This isn't even considering insurance on that truck, or health benefits for that employee. On our Rushforth Wheels, we don’t' make ANY money on powder coat, after all of that is factored in.

Another topic again is the difference between terms, and their actual definitions. The term Billet gets thrown around a lot. By definition, billet just means it's cut out of one solid piece. For example, Louisville Slugger bats are cut out of a "billet" piece of wood. So billet is not synonymous with anything metal. Just defines that the product was formed, from one solid piece. Forged is a better description for a wheel. You have forged wheels, and cast wheels. Forged wheels, like Budnik, Billet Specialties, Intro, Rushforth, Asanti, Fesler, Forgeline, all start life from a heat treated 6061-t6 forging. One piece wheels, are NOT for the most part, machined from a big square of billet. They are casted from a mold. Which means aluminum is melted down, and poured into a casting. This process is cheaper, and usually farmed out to overseas (China). Which is why your one piece wheels are less expensive, offered in set dimensions, and are also technically not as strong.

Dealers and MSRP. Come on really? First of all, I can tell you a wheel manufacturer would be hard pressed to touch as many customers as possible without dealers. I can tell you from experience, dealers are vital to success. Exposure alone, is huge help. I'm sure Intro would agree that without some of those early dealers from when they first started, they wouldn’t be where they are today. A wheel manufacturer would be smart to have dealers, as they are crucial in a company's success. While I was at Budnik, our dealers were our lifeline. Company's like Detroit Speed, Discount Tire, etc, make it easier to order wheels for the end user. But you can't sell for under what a dealer can, which is when business ethics get involved, with such things like MSRP. Company's like Forgeline, American Racing, our own Rushforth Wheels, all monitor what dealers sell their product for, and if you are consistently lower than MSRP, you'll be cut out as a dealer, because it lowers the value of the product across the board. If I sold Forgeline at 15% lower than MSRP all day long, and only made 100 bucks, don't you think Forgeline, and other dealers like Prodigy would get a little pissed? I would almost be literally taking food out of their mouths. And it does no good for any one involved to whore out a product. So, I challenge someone who is arguing over the price of a wheel to go out, quit your job and steady pay check, and start your own wheel company.

[CamaroLance]

That was a great post nine ball... My thoughts exactly.

[Boesch]

Great post Jon.

[vp23271]

Jon,

Thanks for posting! You shed some good light from the dealers/mfg's view.

[vp23271]

Second, outer hoops in a two piece billet wheel are made out of two grades of aluminum these days. Before, they were all rolled out of 5054 grade aluminum, across the board, until a new company early last year came to the table with a 6061-t6 not rolled, but pressed hoop. They are also offering that same hoop now in 18x12, 20x12, and 20x15.

Jon,

Out of curiosity do the 6061-t6 pressed hoops have a solid lip or hollow lip. I have seen both and was wondering which is a better product in your opinion. Maybe the hollow lip was a bi-product of the rolled 5054 aluminum?

I should be ready to order up a set of wheels in the next 6 months and I have narrowed it down to 2 wheels styles. You carry both brands that I like and will give you a call after my brakes and rotors are installed and I have the necessary measurements.

[Fesler built]

Right on Jon, I knew you had a good insight to this :thankyou:

[ProdigyCustoms]

So, I challenge someone who is arguing over the price of a wheel to go out, quit your job and steady pay check, and start your own wheel company.

AMEN!

[TonyL]

Good post Jon. This thread is a wealth of information. Rock on guys.

[DriverzInc]

Good post Jon. This thread is a wealth of information. Rock on guys.

Thank you. I thought there were some things that just needed to be said and brought to light. Hopefully, I did that without offending anyone. I tried to be as diplomatic, and informative as possible.

[The WidowMaker]

jon - i agree with the rest, that was well said. i cant speak for the other consumers, but "my" gripe was never with cost, but rather the differences in materials and construction. since you know how uninformed i am about wheels, my posts were never trying to be negative, but rather an attempt to gain knowledge. the posts here have answered most of my questions.

i can tell you this though. i hate two things more than anything. the first is paying top dollar for bad quality products and the second is paying an enormous amount more for a name. now i would have to admit that a company that has been around for a while deserves more money since they have invested more money in making there product known. but if i can get someones product (the one with the high dollar name) with somebody elses name on it for cheaper i will.

tim

[DriverzInc]

jon - i agree with the rest, that was well said. i cant speak for the other consumers, but "my" gripe was never with cost, but rather the differences in materials and construction. since you know how uninformed i am about wheels, my posts were never trying to be negative, but rather an attempt to gain knowledge. the posts here have answered most of my questions.

i can tell you this though. i hate two things more than anything. the first is paying top dollar for bad quality products and the second is paying an enormous amount more for a name. now i would have to admit that a company that has been around for a while deserves more money since they have invested more money in making there product known. but if i can get someones product (the one with the high dollar name) with somebody elses name on it for cheaper i will.

tim

No I agree, with you, and I hope you didn't feel, or anyone for that matter that I was attacking any one person with the post. It was meant to me be more informative and enlightening than anything else.

I know you didn't mention anything regarding the pricing of the wheels, other than asking why three piece is more than two piece, which I explained, but others did, and eluded to them being over-priced, but when all things are considered, they are really not. (Again, in most cases.) I just think that many people fail to see that wheel manufacturer's are not just producing a wheel, and all the profit from each individual wheel sale gets chucked up to in-pocket profit. There are emplyoyees, machines, advertising, shows, travel costs, phone bills, internet bills, computers, credit card fees, boxes, electricity, and list goes on of expenses to pay. Customer's should more think about who, and which companies they would rather spend their money with, so that those that do a good job of producing a product, and administer good customer service will be here in the future to help others.

I agree with you also that paying top dollar for crap just because of a name is not something we endorse either, nor do we think just the name of any product for sale warrants paying more money for it. Hey, I buy Safeway Select Soda over Coke too.

[buickfunnycar.com]

some great points on this thread,now I know more about wheels then I ever wanted to.:pat:

[JasonSS]

nice post jon. i can now spare everyone my 1000 word response.

[TonyL]

-quick question to the guys making/selling three piece wheels.
Can you usually get a two piece in the same styles as the three with the rivets so you get the look without the cost?

[Nine Ball]

Tony, the answer to your question is yes. You can get most brands of 3-piece wheels in a lower priced 2-piece version that is welded on the backside to the 1-piece hoop. The only drawback is that 2-piece wheels are typically only available in full inch increments for the width. 7",8",9",10" are the normal sizes available. With a true 3-piece wheel, you can get into 1/2-inch increment widths (if you need them).

You can also get 2-piece wheels with or without rivets, as they are just cosmetic on a 2-piece wheel. They look identical to a 3-piece wheel.

[TonyL]

I wonder if you can almost order a too wide 2 piece wheel and have weldcraft cut it to the size you need for the price of a three piece set.
I think it was only a few hundred to have a wheel cut down. Something to think about.

[DriverzInc]

-quick question to the guys making/selling three piece wheels.
Can you usually get a two piece in the same styles as the three with the rivets so you get the look without the cost?

Most definitely. Our Rushforth Wheel desgins are offered in two piece, and three piece, with exposed hardware, or hidden hardware. Lots of options here.

[DriverzInc]

I wonder if you can almost order a too wide 2 piece wheel and have weldcraft cut it to the size you need for the price of a three piece set.
I think it was only a few hundred to have a wheel cut down. Something to think about.

That's an idea, however I don't think it would be the most cost efficient one for the end user. By the time you narrow your two piece wheel, you would be right into three piece pricing. If the ultimate goal is to get a two piece looking wheel, without the hardware exposed, and in three piece wider sizes, the better option may be to go with a three piece wheel that is constructed with 'hidden hardware' like our Rushforth Wheels where the bolts are not exposed from the face of the wheel, but drilled and tapped into the center itself. HRE has a similiar line of wheels as well.

[Boesch]

Tony, the answer to your question is yes. You can get most brands of 3-piece wheels in a lower priced 2-piece version that is welded on the backside to the 1-piece hoop. The only drawback is that 2-piece wheels are typically only available in full inch increments for the width. 7",8",9",10" are the normal sizes available. With a true 3-piece wheel, you can get into 1/2-inch increment widths (if you need them).

You can also get 2-piece wheels with or without rivets, as they are just cosmetic on a 2-piece wheel. They look identical to a 3-piece wheel.

Exactly.

[N2TRUX]

Wow, I thought I had some insight here since I have owned customs wheel since back when Alan Budnik worked for Boyd Coddington. After reading all this I guess there isn't much more to be said.

What the heck, that's never stopped me before. Cost is a huge factor for many. Look at the huge popularity at Coy's wheels right now. Is it because they have hot new styles that no one else offers? Is it because they have the ability to make custom offsets?

No, it's because they have some classic styles that look pretty good on just about anything, and they are cheap. It might not be a buyers first choice, but they look at the price vs waiting to save up for the more expensive wheels and the decision is made.

But price is not the only reason. Even those that aren't scared off by cost might not enjoy the pain in the @ss of cleaning 3 piece wheels.

Easy to clean? Pure horse puckey in my books. Yes, a chrome lip is easier than polished, and a powder coated center is easier than polished as well. That still doesn't get you around the bolts that it requires to put a 3 piece together.

Sure you can drive it down the street to dry it, or use your leaf blower, or blast the area with an air hose. Does that make it quick and easy to clean and dry? Not a freakin chance. Pure and simple 3 piece wheels are a total pain in the @ss to maintain.

Just my meager little opnion...:)

[FirstGenZq8]

i have this thread saved in my favorites, and i re-read it about once a month to remind me of some key points when it comes to high end wheels.

one thing always nags at me though...


So vendors: The consensus has been that the price has to come down. Is that possible? Is there a way to get these rims competitive with 2 and 1 piece wheels? One of you vendors will find out a way. When you do, the buyers will line up.

will 3 peice wheels ever be priced around $2500? CCW does it w/ their CCW classic wheels, why can no other companies get close to that price w/ their wheels?

I understand DriverzInc's post and a company's need to make profit in order pay their employees, feed their babies, etc, but there are some price disparities w/ different 3 peice wheel lines that i feel can't be right. anybody?

and with that, please view this thread HERE (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56728).

[71CamaroSS]

I am willing to bet that if the 3 piece wheels were cheap like everyone wants them to be then no one would really want them. I specifically didn't buy Coy's due to the fact that between them and torque thrust II's they make up 70 to 80% of the wheels saw on cars at shows and cruise ins right now. I definitely didn't need 2 piece quality for my driving purposes but do you really want to spend $1650 for coys just to park beside someone with the same damn wheels. Cough up the other $1500 and be different than the rest! Rushforth pics coming tommorrow!

[opnwide]

I never realized we had so many wheel sponsors on this board. What a great resource. I'll need to use them instead of Wheels America the next time I curb my 18" HREs or BBS wheels, or my 24" MHTs !

Thanks for the info, guys.