Critique my suspension build plan 69 Camaro front sub

[Cdog]

69 Camaro is a SS 350 car with factory GM fast ratio manual steering box. Factory subframe, CPP C5 spindle with Zr1 hubs, CPP upper and lower control arms with adjustable coil over, CTSV 4 piston Brembo’s with C6 Z06 rotors. It maybe possible to run the newer 6 piston calipers up front. I’ll have to make an adapter bracket to make that work. Either way I have access to a mill.

Concerns:

Wheels will be 18 inch made for the car to work with the brakes, backspace etc.

I’m not sure if the CPP components correct the geometry issues with the 1st Gen camaros. Do any of you have input on this?



Steering arm off of my manual steering car factory disk brake car. What other options do i have?

I’d like to run as big of a tire as possible up front. Similar to a Art Morrison frame. 265-18

What are your thoughts?

[makoshark]

I can't answer any of your question, but it never hurts to contact the manufacturer or seller of the parts to confirm there validity to your application.

I will note, that you should purchase the Speedtech upper coilover Chicane brackets and utilize Ridetechs coilovers. You will be able to increase your front wheel travel by 2" with that new upper bracket. I am using this setup and have the same shock travel on the front as I do for the rear. In other words, the same shocks front to rear, but with stiffer springs for the front than the rear, obviously.

[marolf101x]

An extended upper shock mount is ok, if you know what you are getting and what you want from the suspension.

Though the extended upper mount allows you to run a longer shock (and like mako, the same stroke shocks front and rear) you don't actually gain any travel.
The front suspension on a GM F-Body is of the SLA (short long arm) design. This design has a motion ratio. . .meaning the shock travels only a percentage of the distance the wheel travels. Ideally you want 5 inches of overall travel at the wheel, 60% of stroke available for compression (or 3"), and 40% of stroke available for extension (or 2").

With a motion ratio of 2:1 (though you can measure it and get it exact, we generally use 2:1 as an example for this style of suspension) when the wheel travels 5 inches, the shock only travels 2.5 inches.

The suspension travel will be limited by one of the following:
1-bumpstops
2-the shock
3-ball joint (when the ball joints reach bind they cannot move any further)
As one would expect you do not want #3 as it could break parts.

So, given a front suspension that is properly limited to 5" of overall travel you will achieve this travel with a 2.5" travel shock or a 9" travel shock.

When it comes to performance what you are going for is wheel rate. This is determined by the spring and the shock.
If you use the same stroke shocks front and rear, and they are not adjustable, you will have different wheel rates. If you have adjustable shocks you can overcome this a bit by adjusting the shock damping. Our shocks have different valving front-to-rear.

[Cdog]

In a perfect world I’d be able to combine the Ride Tech tru turn system with the Cpp C5 spindles. If ride tech could design the tru turn system to work with CPP’s C5 spindle they would have a winner for sure. I want to keep the C5 hubs since my other car has a Art Morrison front end. I may end up with two cars that can use the same set of front wheels.

I’ve read that Cpp has done some geometry improvements to their C5 spindle but have yet to see any real world numbers or opinions from someone who has used them. I’ve reached out and have gotten some feedback that was positive.

Yesterday I placed a call to a to Speedtech and spoke to Jay in detail. What I would gain by going the Speedtech package route. I’m waiting to hear back from him now but it really comes down to money since this car is more or less set up to be a driver that can hit the track.

[77thor]

Good read here...
http://pozziracing.com/first_gen_suspension.htm

Very informative.

[Cdog]

I'm also taking a serious look at the speedtech ats spindle set up with their full a- arm kit and sway bar. The other is the ride tech tru turn kit.

How big of a tire can you guys run on a stock subframe with either kit and a 18 inch wheel?

Thanks in advance!

[makoshark]

275 is the largest you can go with using the Truturn kit on stock sub. After you buy arms, spindles, truturn, swaybar, steering system you could be just shy of a full frame setup from Speedtech. I kept my stock frame, but upgraded everything else. If I had to do it all over again, I would have just went the new frame setup from Speedtech. I have over $4500 in my frontend using the stock sub.

[Cdog]

275 is the largest you can go with using the Truturn kit on stock sub. After you buy arms, spindles, truturn, swaybar, steering system you could be just shy of a full frame setup from Speedtech. I kept my stock frame, but upgraded everything else. If I had to do it all over again, I would have just went the new frame setup from Speedtech. I have over $4500 in my frontend using the stock sub.

I’ve got a line on the long Spedtech spindle for $900 new from private owner. The rest of the kit should run $2k so about $2900 from my math.

I have no idea on the ridetech kit total cost though.

Makoshark, what is the biggest tire/wheel combo you can run with the Speedtech?

[makoshark]

If you want to use the truturn, then you need to confirm it works with the Speedtech spindle. The truturn was designed to be used with Ridetechs spindle, which is what I would use and am using. What are you using for your steering box and pump?

I believe a 285 is the largest on the Speedtech frame. You might want to check their website for that or someone with direct experience on the frame as I'm not completely sure.

ridetech truturn w/spindles...$1000 and $600 w/o spindles
Steering box and pump...Lee or DSE box...as much as $900 without plumbing
Swaybar...Hotchkis...$225...ridetech...$500
Ridetech single adjustable coilovers...$1300
Speedtech coilover brackets...$300
Speedtech a-arms...$1200
Crossmember...$250

That's a total over $5000 there. I'm just giving you all the options and making you realize how the costs add up quickly

[Cdog]

If you want to use the truturn, then you need to confirm it works with the Speedtech spindle. The truturn was designed to be used with Ridetechs spindle, which is what I would use and am using. What are you using for your steering box and pump?

I believe a 285 is the largest on the Speedtech frame. You might want to check their website for that or someone with direct experience on the frame as I'm not completely sure.

ridetech truturn w/spindles...$1000 and $600 w/o spindles
Steering box and pump...Lee or DSE box...as much as $900 without plumbing
Swaybar...Hotchkis...$225...ridetech...$500
Ridetech single adjustable coilovers...$1300
Speedtech coilover brackets...$300
Speedtech a-arms...$1200
Crossmember...$250

That's a total over $5000 there. I'm just giving you all the options and making you realize how the costs add up quickly

Thanks for this. I appreciate the real world info. I’m redoing the whole car and only have so much dough to put back into it. The rear suspension is going to be a Art Morrison tri4 bar. I decided on this mainly because I like the package and it’s the one thing I’d absolutely have to do before paint. I figure I can upgrade the subframe at any point in the future.

If I make this Speedtech set up work with the numbers I have and reuse my factory quick ratio manual steering box on stock frame I’m looking at 3k for the long uprights with hub, coil overs, A-arms & sway bar.

I’ve called ride tech and they said the truturn will not work with anything but their spindles. Has anyone here fitted this stuff together?

[Proforged]

I think makoshark is heading in the right direction.

The ridetech Tru-Turn is a great setup. If you are going to run it, I would also recommend running their upper and lower a-arms as well - you should avoid mixing-and-matching when it comes to suspension brands. If you run their lower a-arm, then you don't need to weld in an upper coilover bracket - they get the necessary extra travel by lowering the lower control arm mount.

Here is how I would do a subframe:

• ridetech Tru-Turn with spindles - $1000
• Ridetech Upper and Lower Control Arms ($1000 for the set of 4)
• Ridetech Coilover Shocks (non-adjustable, single, or triple - $600, $700, or $1350)
• Delphi 670 Box (~$600)
• Hellwig, Hotchkis, or Ridetech sway bar (all are great, price varies)
• Proforged Billet subframe bushings (shameless plug...$99 from Summit)
• If you're looking to go C5/C6 brakes, Kore3 offers a great setup

Good luck on the build!

[Cdog]

Does anyone here run the manual quick ratio steering box?

[makoshark]

To get the 5" stroke coilovers with ridetech control arms, then you 'will' need the Speedtech upper bracket. This isn't a necessity, but it is a benefit. This is the setup I have, so I'm speaking from experience. Proform quoted coilover prices are for single shocks and I quoted for both.

If ridetech says their kit does not work with the ATS spindle, then it doesn't work. I know this was, recently, discusses and Ridetech did the research. Don't try and mix and match parts to fit your budget. All of these parts are designed to work together. If you deviate, then you will have less than optimal results which would equate to a waste of money.

[Cdog]

To get the 5" stroke coilovers with ridetech control arms, then you 'will' need the Speedtech upper bracket. This isn't a necessity, but it is a benefit. This is the setup I have, so I'm speaking from experience. Proform quoted coilover prices are for single shocks and I quoted for both.

If ridetech says their kit does not work with the ATS spindle, then it doesn't work. I know this was, recently, discusses and Ridetech did the research. Don't try and mix and match parts to fit your budget. All of these parts are designed to work together. If you deviate, then you will have less than optimal results which would equate to a waste of money.

I hear ya. I’m making my round of questioning no doubt. The ridetech package sounds ideal. The price is comparable to the Speedtech and you can run the bigger tire wheel combo.

Can anyone tell me whats the biggest tire you can run on an 18 inch wheel with the Speedtech kit?

[makoshark]

Proforged quoted for both fronts, my bad. I bought all 4 at the same time so was going off what I paid

[makoshark]

Diameter of the wheel really doesn't matter too much. Look on Speedtechs website. I bet it says. Seems I heard 285, though. Either way, your getting about the same size tire on the front.

[killer69]

I hear ya. I’m making my round of questioning no doubt. The ridetech package sounds ideal. The price is comparable to the Speedtech and you can run the bigger tire wheel combo.

Can anyone tell me whats the biggest tire you can run on an 18 inch wheel with the Speedtech kit?

you can comfortably run a 275 on a 9" with AFX spindles and high clearance upper arms. this is what One lap has on his 67

[killer69]

Diameter of the wheel really doesn't matter too much. Look on Speedtechs website. I bet it says. Seems I heard 285, though. Either way, your getting about the same size tire on the front.

the diameter will make a difference the smallest I recommend if you want a 275/285 is an 18" wheel

[Proforged]

the diameter will make a difference the smallest I recommend if you want a 275/285 is an 18" wheel

Didn't realize you could run such a large wheel...that's a nice setup. Blake - if a customer has already powdercoated/painted their subframe and doesn't want to weld in your coilover bracket, I assume they can run the AFX spindle, your upper arm, a ridetech lower, and ridetech coilovers without issue?

[Cdog]

Blake now I'm trying to talk myself into going with the whole subframe. Lol!! Do you want a fn scar 17 rifle as trade? Lol! I might have to rearrange my hobbies.