Need a little help figuring something out

[Rat Stu]

In Lance's case, we used off the shelf ridetech arms & did not modify them. I have a new line of control arms being designed currently ... that ridetech is building for me ... that does these exact things (moves the lower shock mount out & ball joints for more caster) as well as cut & weld in upper shock mount. They also use screw in ball joints which provides me with more geometry & spindle options. These will be sold only through RSRT, not Ridetech.

Ron,
Another huge thank you for all of your time, effort and good will providing the wealth of knowledge in this thread.

My car is a 1960 Studebaker with a 79 malibu front clip. I just took it to my first track day ever last week. All the drivers were newbies so it is hard to judge my car's abilities but I was in the middle of the pack not far behind the camaros and vettes. I was very pleased since this is a budget build that I did myself while learning to weld and building my first motor.

Its not a dedicated track or AutoX car. I like driving it on the street..when I don't have it torn apart. So should I be shooting for similar caster numbers to Lance? I can currently get about 4.75 degrees while keeping the camber correct. I plan to align the LCA mounting holes this winter and I am wondering if I should move the lower bj forward at the same time. If the holes are close I may just use some of these new arms you are talking about.

Up front the car has inexpensive circle track tubular UCAs, 1/2 inch tall ball joints top and bottom, stock LCAs, QA1 single adjustable coilovers with 500# springs and a 7/8" rollbar. The camber curve may be too aggressive as I lowered the LCA mounting holes 1/2" also. The car weighs 3200# with me in it and the 400hp sbc. The rear is a Monte 7.5 inch unit that I mounted to the Studes leaf springs and non-adjustable shocks. I also added a track bar to keep the wheels from hitting the fenders.

I am also debating whether or not to buy the Performance Trends software to dig a bit deeper. I did allot of work on a RC calculator spreadsheet that I put together last winter but without having any end goals I found I was just obsessing over the numbers and never getting out to work on the car.



Thanks Again,
Greg

[Ron Sutton]

Ron,
Another huge thank you for all of your time, effort and good will providing the wealth of knowledge in this thread.

My car is a 1960 Studebaker with a 79 malibu front clip. I just took it to my first track day ever last week. All the drivers were newbies so it is hard to judge my car's abilities but I was in the middle of the pack not far behind the camaros and vettes. I was very pleased since this is a budget build that I did myself while learning to weld and building my first motor.

Its not a dedicated track or AutoX car. I like driving it on the street..when I don't have it torn apart. So should I be shooting for similar caster numbers to Lance? I can currently get about 4.75 degrees while keeping the camber correct. I plan to align the LCA mounting holes this winter and I am wondering if I should move the lower bj forward at the same time. If the holes are close I may just use some of these new arms you are talking about.

Up front the car has inexpensive circle track tubular UCAs, 1/2 inch tall ball joints top and bottom, stock LCAs, QA1 single adjustable coilovers with 500# springs and a 7/8" rollbar. The camber curve may be too aggressive as I lowered the LCA mounting holes 1/2" also. The car weighs 3200# with me in it and the 400hp sbc. The rear is a Monte 7.5 inch unit that I mounted to the Studes leaf springs and non-adjustable shocks. I also added a track bar to keep the wheels from hitting the fenders.

I am also debating whether or not to buy the Performance Trends software to dig a bit deeper. I did allot of work on a RC calculator spreadsheet that I put together last winter but without having any end goals I found I was just obsessing over the numbers and never getting out to work on the car.

Thanks Again,
Greg

Hi Greg,

I can't tell you an absolute caster number to run ... on any single set up criteria as an absolute ... without you working out your entire setup. The problem with asking one guy for a caster number ... another for a camber number ... another for a spring rate ... another for toe setting ... another for sway bar rate ... etc, etc ... is the combination ends up being a mismatched hodge podge with handling result that range from poor to evil.

I would suggest you work out your set-up as a whole ... either on your own with a software like Performance Trends ... or with an experienced setup person.

As far as caster goes ... I can tell you ...
a. How much you need is affected by the spindle KPI, camber strategy, car's roll angle & level the car is driven at.
b. Old school setups ran a lot of camber ... 2.5° static plus ... and lots of camber gain ... and very little caster ... somewhere around 3°+/-.
c. When I work out "modern" setups ... I usually have the caster 2-3.5° higher than the KPI of the spindle ... with less camber.

Best wishes !

[Rat Stu]

Hi Greg,

I can't tell you an absolute caster number to run ... on any single set up criteria as an absolute ... without you working out your entire setup. The problem with asking one guy for a caster number ... another for a camber number ... another for a spring rate ... another for toe setting ... another for sway bar rate ... etc, etc ... is the combination ends up being a mismatched hodge podge with handling result that range from poor to evil.

I would suggest you work out your set-up as a whole ... either on your own with a software like Performance Trends ... or with an experienced setup person.

As far as caster goes ... I can tell you ...
a. How much you need is affected by the spindle KPI, camber strategy, car's roll angle & level the car is driven at.
b. Old school setups ran a lot of camber ... 2.5° static plus ... and lots of camber gain ... and very little caster ... somewhere around 3°+/-.
c. When I work out "modern" setups ... I usually have the caster 2-3.5° higher than the KPI of the spindle ... with less camber.

Best wishes !

very good advice Ron...

The missing piece for me is an overall direction. I have calculated of the roll centers, camber curves, weight distribution etc, but all it does for me is tell me where they are now. I have no idea what the end goal should be. I believe they are better that before but I have no idea what to do to make it closer to optimum.

Does the Performance Trends just give me more analysis of my existing setup or does it help with an overall strategy for moving forward? Or is an experienced setup person the only way I am going to figure that out?

Thanks again
Greg

[Ron Sutton]

very good advice Ron...

The missing piece for me is an overall direction. I have calculated of the roll centers, camber curves, weight distribution etc, but all it does for me is tell me where they are now. I have no idea what the end goal should be. I believe they are better that before but I have no idea what to do to make it closer to optimum.

Does the Performance Trends just give me more analysis of my existing setup or does it help with an overall strategy for moving forward? Or is an experienced setup person the only way I am going to figure that out?

Thanks again
Greg

Hey Greg,

Without sounding like a self promotion ... the best way for you to learn what you need ... would be to attend one of my workshops this year. I have a 5 year tour planned & every year my topic is different. The topic this year covers everything you need to know about dialing in optimum geometry for your car ... as well as how to work up your suspension set up (springs & bar rates) and your alignment (caster, camber, KPI, etc) for optimum contact patch dynamically on track. Then I cover the secrets to increasing grip. Lastly, we cover how to tune at the track for neutral handling & balance.

Not only do we cover every important aspect of suspension geometry, such as Ackerman, Anti-Dive, Roll Center Migration, Camber Dynamics, Caster Change, Jacking Effect, Tire Slip Angle, Motion Ratios, Bump Steer, Contact Patch Dynamics ... I share which ones matter ... why they matter to your performance ... what your targets should be ... and how to physically achieve them. This is all in plain car guy language & everyone "gets it."

The first 3 sold out in Indiana, Ohio & North Caroline. There are only two left are:
* Fort Worth, Texas on Thursday, Sept 29th (Day before big Goodguys event at Texas Motor Speedway)
* Las Vegas, Nevada on Wednesday, Nov 2nd (During SEMA & before optima Finale at Las Vegas Motor Speedway)

More Info: http://www.ronsutton-racetechnology.com/
Tickets: http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology....pping/?ic=6106

[Rat Stu]

Hey Greg,

Without sounding like a self promotion ... the best way for you to learn what you need ... would be to attend one of my workshops this year. I have a 5 year tour planned & every year my topic is different. The topic this year covers everything you need to know about dialing in optimum geometry for your car ... as well as how to work up your suspension set up (springs & bar rates) and your alignment (caster, camber, KPI, etc) for optimum contact patch dynamically on track. Then I cover the secrets to increasing grip. Lastly, we cover how to tune at the track for neutral handling & balance.

Not only do we cover every important aspect of suspension geometry, such as Ackerman, Anti-Dive, Roll Center Migration, Camber Dynamics, Caster Change, Jacking Effect, Tire Slip Angle, Motion Ratios, Bump Steer, Contact Patch Dynamics ... I share which ones matter ... why they matter to your performance ... what your targets should be ... and how to physically achieve them. This is all in plain car guy language & everyone "gets it."

The first 3 sold out in Indiana, Ohio & North Caroline. There are only two left are:
* Fort Worth, Texas on Thursday, Sept 29th (Day before big Goodguys event at Texas Motor Speedway)
* Las Vegas, Nevada on Wednesday, Nov 2nd (During SEMA & before optima Finale at Las Vegas Motor Speedway)

More Info: http://www.ronsutton-racetechnology.com/
Tickets: http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology....pping/?ic=6106

Come to the midwest (Minneapolis) and I'm all over it!!