HellBoy - No Limit C10

[RobNoLimit]

No, not a build thread. It's already done. So this wiil be a driving thread. Full of useless information about changes, mistakes, upgrades, events, and fun.
The HellBoy was originally going to be called the Reaper, but once we painted it red, well, its not like that was the first change. It started life as a well used 3/4 ton longhorn (9 ft bed), it even had a lumber rack. And nobody could see what I did, even when I explained what I was going to do. - maybe that made things worse.
My last truck, the Silver Bullit 55 F100 was a blast, but times were changing. Goodguys made some rule changes that would put me running up against the big boys (I can't blame Goodguys, they had to). So i wanted to build something that would be competetive, in the shape of a truck. The basic plan was short, wide and light, well, at least it's wide. The wheelbase is 109", not as short as a Camaro or Mustang, and she's a middleweight 3150 lbs. (my goal was 2750) Our first outing in Del Mar was not so good. We built this in just over 90 days, and mostly after hours, until the last week or so, then it was 24/7. On the last day, thursday, Chad Reynolds was coming over. He needed a ride down to Del Mar, "sure, we'll be leaving around 6pm." OK, 8, or 10pm, midnight?, 2 am it is. Still had to go to my house, swap the truck for the motorhome, Wake up the wife (Tina) and drive to Del Mar (appx 2 1/2 hr) That was a long day. Then the problems showed up. Howlin' gears in the quickchange, I mean HOWLIN'. Springs too stiff, brakes not so good, driver too tired to care. But the writing was on the wall, No more Mr. nice guy.

[Tony_SS]

What truck..

[dontlifttoshift]

That's the first time that truck has seemed less than impressive. The engineering and fit and finsh are far better in the foreground.

[RobNoLimit]

That's the first time that truck has seemed less than impressive. The engineering and fit and finsh are far better in the foreground.

Somethings are just nice to look at. I could never afford to have the Mona Lisa hang in my entry way, but I can still apreciate the artistry.

[bonecrrusher]

More pics of the truck?

More pics of flag girl?

[tommycomfort]

What truck???

Tom

[Martin71RS]

Rob, some small bits from OUSCI:





regards,
Martin

[RobNoLimit]

Thanks for the videos Martin. optima is a blast, even if I choked the Auto-x.

I mentioned the brakes. In the initial build I went with the standard brake for a wide-5 hub. Thats 11.75 x 1.25 rotor and a 4 piston calipers. The truck did stop (not to the satisfaction of some GoodGuys staff, - see the 2013 rules) just not as good as I want it to. The reason this is the normal size brake for a wide-5 is that type car is limited to a 15" wheel. I don't have that problem, so bigger brakes it is. Here is the two rotors, the new one is 13" x 1.25

[RobNoLimit]

I had the old rotors mounted on a floater ring, this reduced the pad nock-back to almost zero, but creates a hurdle here. No one makes a ssembly to put the 13" rotor on a wide-5 hub, so I went to work on it. After some programming, I cut these out on our Flowjet, from 1/4" steel. Out on the edge, where the 'T' nuts ride needs to be .235", so I put them on a rotary thable and milled them dowm a bit. Fter the final fit I had them shot-peened and surface hardened by a local heat treating shop. The second shot is the 'T' nut with the old floater ring.

[RobNoLimit]

Everything fits like a glove. The downside here may be cost. The 11.75" rotors cost about $40 bucks. circle track stuff. The new 13" are just over $100. I hoping I can run a less agressive pad and they will last longer. Last year I went through two full sets of rotors. Here is a front rotor from the end of the season. - sorry for the bad resolution

[RobNoLimit]

Wow, thats really bad when you blow it up! Here is the picts of the hub/floater/rotor together. Next is new caliper mounts.

[Twin_Turbo]

What wheels are those?

[RobNoLimit]

OK. About the wheels. Short answer, I made them.
Now, the real question is, "Why the wide-5"? Wide-5 hubs are common in circle track. The bolt pattern is from the early fords (30's - 40's) - not VW. They are light, strong and cheap. But, there is a down side, ALL of the racers that run these have to use 15" wheels. Thats the NASCAR rules. Steel and aluminum 15 x 8 and 15 x 10 can be had for less than $100 all day long, but thats it. When I started on this project, the wheels were the biggest problem. BTW, the Summers ans Sons black C10 (used to be white) has the same set up. Trent Summers had found a guy to make him 18" steel wide-5, but they wieghed 36 lbs each. Then, the chase started. He found a guy in georgia that new of a guy out west that was going to make 18" wide-5 wheels for som series that failed. These 'magic' 18 x 11 and 18 x 12 spun hoops were somewhere. Turned out a guy in anahiem had heard this story, and we found the hoops in whittier, ca. - and this guy was pissed off at oval racers, (seams they never paid him for the hoops) After a trip to see them, I bought a bunch of hoops. They weighed in at 8 to 9 lbs each for 18 x 11 and 18 x 12. Then it was on to Intro wheels to talk to Victor. He has made me some one-of wheels before, and he gave me all the specs. Load calcs show that I could have cut the centers out of 5/8" aluminum, but I wanted some more depth, Victor gave me some damaged blanks, and off I went.
I first cut some test designs out of .090 sheet, just to look at. Then I roughed out the centers on our FlowJet. Then it was over to a friends macine shop to finish them up. Once the machine work was done it was back to Intro to have them pressed and welded. Not as hard as I thought it would be. There are three sets on earth now. I have two, and Summers has one. I have cut a set for a freind out here, but that car isn't finished yet.

[RobNoLimit]

Now for the rest of the story......
I've heard all of the crying about - race car - purpose built - exotic - bla bla bla. Give it up. First of all, all hot rods are purpose built, for what ever purpose the builder/owner wanted. This Wide-5 stuff is cheap. Brand new, the hubs are $100 bucks, rotors are $40 bucks, and spindles are around $400. They are designed to use the big Superlight style caliper, appx $200 each, and there are a bunch of pad compounds available for these, all over the country. So, $1200.00 will get you spindles and brakes. Compare that to some of the aftermarket disk kits - without spindles. If you shop E-bay and swap meets you can get the whole deal for a few hundred bucks. Next is the weight. These spindles are hollow, fabricated units. I got mine from HOWE racing. They weigh in at 8 1/2 lbs. 2nd gen camaro spindle weighs 18 lbs. Load up a Wide-5 with hubs, standard 11.75" rotors and calipers and they tip the scales at 18 1/4 lbs. A loaded 2nd gen spindle with 11" brake and caliper is 39 lbs. Last thing is the bearings. Wide-5 hubs use BIG bearings, spread WAY apart. The spindle shaft is appx 2" dia., and the bearings are almost 4" apart, that makes the hub very stable. You can even get oil-filled hubs and low friction bearings. I heard it from a lot of people (even the manufacturer) that this would never work on the street, but so far, no problems. We pulled the hubs apart for the rotor swap, and everything looks fine. I'm going to clean and re-use the bearings and hardware to see how long it will last. Still think it's not streetable, ask Jimi Day, he drove it 80 miles in So Cal traffic.

[cornfedbill]

I checked into the wide-5 setup some time ago. You are right, it is reasonable compared to most aftermarket big break systems. It is light, stiff and performs well.

As you stated, the limitation is the standard 15" wheel size and 11.75" rotor, which you corrected.

I also agree that all hot rods are purpose built.

Keep up the great work!

[Bryce]

Will you be selling those rotor adapters?

[coolwelder62]

Rob,you have built one bad ass truck.I dig it.Keep kickin everybody butt.I see at an event this year.

[Flash68]

I've heard all of the crying about - race car - purpose built - exotic - bla bla bla. Give it up. First of all, all hot rods are purpose built, for what ever purpose the builder/owner wanted.

Right on Rob. Right on.

[Rod]

I've heard all of the crying about - race car - purpose built - exotic - bla bla bla.

ha ha ha ha Its just jealousy, anyone complaining, I bet would jump at the chance to run Hell Boy ragged at an event, and there the same ones buying the newest whipper snapper bolt on and thinking they can buy a win by throwing money at their ride, instead of learning to drive, and on that note I have had my butt handed to me at many scca events by 100HP miatas with great drivers, OK get on with the story

[RobNoLimit]

Thanks guys. Two things today. One, We put the trans back in yesterday. Why was it out? Well, to be honest, the TKO-600 doesn't shift all that sweet. (I'm being really polite) The 2-3 shift under acceleration is almost imposible. Waiting for a second or two (not kidding) for it to drop in is killing the big coarse times, and the drag strip (read that 'stop light') fun. So, out it came. The Mcloed twin disc clutch looked almost new after a season. I got a box of parts from Mark Bowler at Bowler Transmission that is supposed to fix, or at least help the shifting. Here's the kick. This box of parts was almost 600 bucks. Plus the trans is R&R'd, and opened up. I'm lucky to have Mike Sullivan here in our build shop, He opened it right up, no problem, down to the main shaft and back together in a few hours. But the average guy is taking it to a trans shop, and paying, and waiting. So, my overall thoughts, buy a better trans, it's cheaper in the long run. I'll let you know how much better it is at RTTC.
Two, back to my brake upgrade. With the new rotors on (this can't be done BTW) It was time for caliper mounts. So far this upgrade is all bolt together, and could be put back to the 11.75 rotor is needed, so I wanted to keep the caliper mount on the same concept. I had also discovered that the caliper was acting as the steering stop up against the A-arm - not good. So, I need to move the caliper out and up. Wilwood is nice enough to publish all of the mounting points vs. rotor size in their technical catalog, that helps. I started with 3/4" thick aluminum and cut some adapter mounts out on the FlowJet. This is the easy way for me. 30 min to program, 10 min to set up, 14 min to cut. Without a lot of machining background, This gets me pretty far, pretty quick. I cut all of the holes appx .020" under size, and drill them out on a press. Mounting holes are 7/16", threaded holes are a 'W' bit, for 7/17" x 20 thread. I bolted them to the spindle and used a scribe to trace the edge. I needed to drop this area .375" so the the new mount surface is at the same level as it was before. I have a Bridgeport mill, but not a cnc, so I have to hand feed this. With set up and dailing it in, it took about 45 min. After a little clean up they fit really nice. All thats left is to thread the caliper mounting holes. - and go back and safety wire everything. - yeah.