HellBoy - No Limit C10

[RobNoLimit]

The learning curve on a lot of this stuff is more like a learning cliff. And we're going up. I'm very pleased with the improvements on the truck, and have come to grips with a few things. I am hoping that some of this info gets put to use in future or current projects, by anyone and/or everyone interested.
The motor ran great. The cam and intake swap were well worth the money and time. Many upgrades like this seam to net very little, but this swap was a big gain, all good. The last few laps of the road coarse I topped the rise on the long straight at just under 140 mph. (138 by gps replay) At optima, I was running a top speed of 122 on the long straight, which is longer than El-Toro, so the extra power made a BIG difference. I can olny imagine how I would have done at the OUSCI with this combo. BTW, I use "Trackmaster" I phone app as a gps lap timer. This can be mapped to any track by running the 'calibrate' during the parade lap. The phone must be plugged into a 12v source, and clear under the winshield. My saturday times were .002 seconds off of the ASCS times. I call that accurate enough for me. The brakes are better, more on that later, and loosening up the gear set (no so much locked) cut the understeer WAY down. The anti-dive angle in the front is now at 8 1/2 deg. (used to be 6) the brake in is much better, provided I hit the mark. Whick brings me to the new problem, me.
At a GoodGuys event, 55 - 60 mph is about the top speed, with most of you driving spent around 30 mph. At A.M.P., top speed is apx 75mph, with a 40mph average. Even SCCA events are mostly 'second gear' layouts. For the last thre years, my 'competetive' driving has mostly been at speeds from 30 - 70 mph. At these speeds I am somewhat confident about braking points, lane position and turn in points. The autocross this weekend in El-Toro was fairly open, and I ran most of it in third gear (gear discussion later) with 3.73 rears, this put me around the 70 - 80 mph range on a lot of the coarse. I think I adapted about average. But the road coarse was really fast. Now, I loved it, and I had a blast. But to tell the truth, the the fastest the truck hes EVER been, and I haven't been that fast in at least 15 yrs. So getting used to shifting, braking and the turn in points at that speed takes some getting used to. On saturday I was topping the rise at 115 to 120, and thought that was fast, on sunday it was almost 140. And, Brian Hobaugh ran 5 seconds faster that me. WOW!!!. I think I finished solidly in the top ten, and I'm happy about that. More big track days are needed to get used to that speed.

[COPO-RAT]

I never got any good reasons why it wouldn't work. I heard comments like, "the hubs can't take the stress", "The brakes can't take it", ..... I just kept thinking, that there is no way I can load the spindle the way a dirt late model on a banked clay track can. And, there is no street as bumpy as Perris or Ventura speedways. I'll be the crash test dummy. - that's why I put the cage in it.

Amen to that! I rationalize my wide five obsession with the same thoughts.....go watch a dirt late model on a fast banked clay track and tell me that a street car will subject more stress to the parts than that. I think NOT!
Killer truck, thanks for sharing!

[RobNoLimit]

Rttc 2013

[RobNoLimit]

#2, rttc 2013

[RobNoLimit]

#3, rttc 2013

[RobNoLimit]

#4, rttc 2013

[COPO-RAT]

Rob,
Great truck and awesome info/pics in the thread! Thanks for sharing.
One question (if you don't mind asking-PM if you'd like), are the spindles 'off the shelf' from Howe or did you modify them? How do they compare dimensionally with other aftermarket spindles out there? Are they similar in height, attachment points, steering arm location etc? Did you design your suspension around them, or were they a good fit for what you already had?
Any info is greatly appreciated!
JP

[RobNoLimit]

I'm rounding up some info for ya.

Rob,
Great truck and awesome info/pics in the thread! Thanks for sharing.
One question (if you don't mind asking-PM if you'd like), are the spindles 'off the shelf' from Howe or did you modify them? How do they compare dimensionally with other aftermarket spindles out there? Are they similar in height, attachment points, steering arm location etc? Did you design your suspension around them, or were they a good fit for what you already had?
Any info is greatly appreciated!
JP

[RobNoLimit]

So Cal Challenge this saturday, time for more gear thoughts. The Hellboy was built with a quickchange rear axle to allow me an easy solution for gear changes. That was the idea. I have a few gear sets, 3:31, 3:55, 3:73, and 4:10 (this is a 1-1 set) The first three sets can be flipped to net 4:55, 4:88, and 5:12. - I don't use those much. Gear changes take about 15 minutes. Also, the truck has a TKO-600 trans with the close ratio set. Note, I would not go for the close ratio again. Fifth gear is .82, and the only time I use it is on the freeway, so a .7 or .62 would be a smarter choice. Saturday at RTTC I started with a 3:55 ratio. On the autocross that put me on the rev limiter a good bit of the time (second gear runs) If I shifted to third, the RPM was a bit low. A gear change was coming. But, which way? In an effort to "go fo it" I chose to put in the 3:73 and force myself to shift, partly to learn how to shift and get practice with the 'heal-toe' thing. Well, that didn't work so well. The first problem was in the drivers seat. Smoothly downshifting for the U-turn at the far end of the course proved tricky for me, although good practice, and then the downshift through the last chicane into the stop box was not so smooth. All that is my fault. The second thing was corner exit. Yes, the gear made the truck quicker, maybe, but also easier to spin a tire. It took a good bit more throttle control to keep it hooked up. This also has to do with tires, shocks, and set-up, but I'm trying to focus on just the gearing for now. I think the 3:31 would have been the smarter choice. "Make it easy to drive" - Maier told me once. The taller gear would have let me run in second all the way around, and been a bit easier on the tires off the corner. - possibly netting faster laps. At A.M.P. this weekend, I'm going to start out with the 3:73's for the first hour session. Then swap for the 3:31. If it was the wrong choice I can swap back during lunch. I'll let you know. BTW, Chad Reynolds from BangShift.com will be streaming live from the event. check it out.

[COPO-RAT]

I'm rounding up some info for ya.

You don't know how much I appreciate that!
Thanks!

[RobNoLimit]

The GoodGuys season opener in Scottsdale turned out to be a great time. Friday was mostly rained out, so we got a lot of time for bench racin with friends. This spawned our autocross prank. A late night run to Walmart for some fishin gear. Early sturday we got set up. 1. Locate an inside apex cone thats close to the fence. 2. Get the OK from track staff and a coarse worker. 3. Tie a hook onto the line and hook the top of the cone. Run the line over to the fence near the end of the pit area and tie it off. 4. Pick the target. Mike Maier was first, but he spotted us, so we chose Brian Hobaugh. Everytime time he went out, we puled the cone over as he went passed on the first lap, so he could see it when he went by again. Each run he moved his line out a bit, and still 'hit' the cone. Four morning runs, four cones. It was hard not to tell him. Just after lunch Maier lost a rad hose and slid through the side run out, destroying our trip line. :( Turns out the joke was on us. Our prank forced Brian to make an early apex which gave him a better set up into the next corner, and being a great driver he adapted no problem. The results tell the story, he kicked all of our asses, bad. We all laughed but I'm sad to say no video. We also had the closest finish in GoodGuys history. It came down to a battle between Kyle Tucker in the DSE mustang and myself, fighting for 2nd in the Pro class, our last runs were our fastest, and the seporation was .001 sec. I got him. I was, and still am really proud of that. I have a lot of respect for Kyle and the DSE crew, both for their product and abilitys on track, so coming out on top is a big accomplishment for me.

In Texas, Chris 'Smitty' Smith won the Truck class and moved into the Pro class with his 68 C10. Chris is running No Limit suspension.

[beater65]

Just read the latest issue of street trucks, and the C-10 protouring trucks... yours included. AWESOME.

skills/knowledge to be dialing in all of the parameters to start being succesfull on the track, very respectable.

[RobNoLimit]

Thanks Beater65, We're still learning.

Two weeks ago I was fortunate enough to be invited to go to Willow Springs with Bret Voekel - ridetech, James Shipka and David Pozzi with the One Lap Camaro, Carl C. and some others. Bret was there working with Fox Shocks, and we run them, so they were helping tune. I learned more from the Fox Techs in 8 hrs than I could have learned in four or five years of trail and error. Lots of great conversations and demonstrations. They changed the truck so much that I have to learn it all over again. The chassis response is way quicker than before. It sets into a corner in about half of the time. I started the day runnning 1.36 laps (trackmaster I-phone app) and in our last session out I was solid in the 1.28, with a fast lap of 1.27.78. Bret was in the same range in the 33, we were the only two on the track and we could see each other three or four times per lap, always close to the same spots. I'm sure that was driving us both to run faster. Lots of fun. Thanks to the guys that put that on, and thanks for inviting me out.

Pleasanton GoodGuys was packed. The biggest croud I've ever seen at the Spring show. Learning to drive the truck on a super tight course proved challenging. The truck turns in quicker and it took a while to adjust to the 'timing' of the steering. In the end I finished fourth in the Pro class. Kyle Tucker and I swapped spots for 3rd/4th a few times. As luck would have it, on my last run I ran a 31.005, would have been good for 3rd, but competetive timing was over. Oh well. Thats one for Kyle, and one for me (Scottsdale). Del mar will be the tie breaker. Mike Maier was a man on a mission taking the top spot, with Brian Hobaugh 2nd. All in all a fun weekend.

Tuesday, 3-26, we went to AMP to get some more seat time. Late in the second session i ran a fast lap of 44.07, with Matt Alcalla in the passenger seat. I'm starting to get the feel of the new valving. That is my fastest lap ever (previos was 44.38) Now I am only .8 sec from the trackm record (monster Miata on slicks 43.286) feeling pretty good about that. Tuesday night had other highlights. James Crosby had the ridetech 33 out, Matt Alcalla was there in his 69 Camaro (gaining all the seat time he can prepping for optima) and was there with his TCI prepped 32 roadster. That was our run group. The pit lanes were full of late models and imports, and we looked like a throw back from days gone by. We were also the fastest run group, by far. Looking forward to Del Mar next week. have a happy Easter.

[T_Raven]

Man I've been trying to remember who built this truck. I'm currently on page 15 of your "make it handle" thread on 67-72chevytrucks, and I read your jt build thread. Some how I ended up finding a pic of this truck again and saw it said no limit and found this thread.

Thanks for taking the time to put up so much good info

[PhillipM]

Can you post the tread on the other sites?

[T_Raven]

Here is the thread for this Hellboy truck

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=488826

This is the build thread for the one he calls Joe Touring. It's more of a low buck mod thread/guinea pig truck

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=436621

This thread is about making trucks handle. It's very long but a really good read. I'm only about 1/3 of the way through it.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=419251

[brawls43]

Love your trucks Rob! Can you tell me more about why people say the wide 5 hubs won't work on the street? I'm curious as to how its built for racing, but won't last on the street. Doesn't make sense to me.

[LS2-C10]

Looking forward to seeing it in Columbus this weekend!

[RobNoLimit]

Love your trucks Rob! Can you tell me more about why people say the wide 5 hubs won't work on the street? I'm curious as to how its built for racing, but won't last on the street. Doesn't make sense to me.

I really don't know. Trent Summers, the Summers and Sons C10, is running the same thing. We worked together on a few items, and they are running all No Limit suspension. We were told by MANY people, manufacturures, reps, sales people,...... "bad idea, they won't last" But, I just couldn't see it. I've been in a Late Model dirt car on a banked clay oval. - There is NO WAY we can put that kind of load on the hub with a 200 TW street tire on asphault. Just not going to happen. So, were on year two, 7300+ miles on it, no problems with the hubs. Now, the standard Wilwood T-nuts, used to mount floating rotors have a short lifespan. they crack on a regular basis and you need to keep an eye on them. - Ask Trent. But, after replacing two dozen T-nuts last year, I built a new floater ring this winter, and no more failures. The new ring holds a 13" x 1.1 spec 37 Wilwood rotor (you can't put 13" brakes on a wide-5 hub, just ask anyone) but instead of a T-nut, it uses a sholder bolt with a machined floater ring, in a round hole in the rotor mount plate. - this is how Ducati would do it.

[RobNoLimit]

The years big road trip is done!!! Des-Moines, Jasper, Columbus, Knoxville, home. We had a great time, except for rebuilding the dash air in the motorhome - thanks to ridetech for the use of thier parking lot -. I've been following along a few threads in the suspension section and taking notes, Ron Sutton and I share many of the same thoughts, and that makes me feel better, sometimes when people ask about how the truck is set up, I'm nervious to answer, because the truth may be WAY outside the normal. I widened the rear track to get it close to the front, and went back to the original caster setting of 10 deg., balanced out the coils and bars, and loadere up to go. - no testing to speak of. The truck ran great in Des Moines, all though the driver (me) not feeling so good. I think the 2 1/2 day dash to Iowa took its toll. We finished third to Roger Burman and Josh Liesinger, both in the Summit Crusher Camaro. - but the truck felt really good. We helped a few guys with some quickchange gears, and Tyler Gibson showed up with a Scout built on his old truck chassis - it's really cool, and fast. He won the truck class so you'll see it in the gazette. At ridetech I got to see the shock dyno process, and the differences in valve sets. Also the new injection molded delron bushings they have. Cool stuff, and great hospitality. Jasper Indiana proved to be a good layover spot. In Columbus, the weather was nice. - not like the last few years. The new track layout was fun, and there is a lot going on at that show. - That means not to many runs for most at the autocross. Friday morning Albert showed up with the first ever carbon fiber hood for a C10!. We tried to mount it but the latch was off, so back to the steel hood and off to the autocross. We got three runs before lunch, and in a tough crowd we were on the board. While the Streetmachine of the Year cars ran, Albert and I went back to the hood. He had rounded up a die grinder and bits and we fitted the hood. The hoods looks great, and cut 46 lbs off the front. When we got back to the pit area, the SMotY cars were done, and they were already running the Pro class. I went right out, unprepared, and ran the fastest lap of the day at that point. by friday's close we were in third. I had only made a few changes to the truck. I seamed to want softer compression on the rear after the hood swap. I should have changed gears, had 3.30 and the tack never crossed 6200, I had a set of 3.55 gears I could have put in, but, ... who knows. Saturday morning was the Sponsor Shootout. 12 cars, two practice laps each, then one qualifying lap. We qualified #1 with a 35.042, that proved to be the fastest lap of the weekend, by a lot. But, in the final round with Kyle Tucker, I clipped a cone, and lost by .078 sec. The truck was great, the driver ?? The rest of saturday got us four more laps, and we sat in third (Sponsor Shootout times didn't count for the rest of the event), with the top four going into the sunday Shootout. Sunday morning the Pro Shootout was set with Roger Burman - Crusher camaro, Josh Liesinger - Crusher camaro, Me - in the Hellboy C10, and Ryan Mathews in the DSE 69 camaro. In the end it was the drivers, not the cars, and Ryan edged out Josh in the final run. Congrats to all who competed.
Other notable events, - Nightlife in Des Moines with Wes and Jimi. Seeing Yancy wheelin the bad penny, Thurmans burgers, Andy working the time slips, and getting to see, joke with and compete with a really great bunch of people. Oh, did I mention, FASTEST LAP OF THE WEEKEND!