What carnage to expect on race day?

[SRD art]

Hearing the announcement for the next RTTH has got me stoked, I really am looking forward to whoopin' on the Pumkinator next season. I've heard a few people talk about going through a set of tires at an event. I'm a newbie to non-drag racing events so I was wondering if that was true and what other carnage should I expect (sans the car breaking)? I think I would probably push the car harder on the autocross, and on a road course I'd probably be a bit more conservative because of the speeds involved.

Any insight from you veterans is very appreciated, I just want to know ahead of time what to expect.



Is there a thread already about this I can look up? Thanks!

[RobNoLimit]

You'll be surprised at the tire wear, especially if you drop the pressure down to get it stuck, in the mid 20's. Paint damage always gets me. When the tire get real sticky, they throw everything at the paint. Then, you rub on a cone or two. Get some 3M clear mask, or go cheap and use sticky back shelf paper. Bring fluids. For you and the car. Big track runnin will show you were things get too hot. - P/S fluid, trans, rear, brake, and cooling. Something will spill out, so be ready. Take a hat and sunscreen, and have fun.

[SRD art]

You'll be surprised at the tire wear, especially if you drop the pressure down to get it stuck, in the mid 20's. Paint damage always gets me. When the tire get real sticky, they throw everything at the paint. Then, you rub on a cone or two.

How so surprised? Do you mean they hold up well or do you mean they wear surprisingly quickly?

So you drop your air pressure to the 20s?? I figured that would cause more sway- something to avoid (?). I run drag radials on my Nova in the 20lb area and they sway a bit. But again I'm new to autocoross so I don't know how HP handling tires react to this.

Not so worried about scuffing paint. I have invested a whopping $36 in Rustoleum semi-gloss black rattle bombs for my custom paint job (see below) so touching up is fairly cheap, lol!

Thanks for the other tips. I always pack coolant, but will bring the other stuff too.

[mpozzi]

Damn ... that is a cool wagon. As for tire wear, remember this mantra and remember it often "Slow in, fast out. Fast in, out backwards or not at all!"

This means to recognize the limits of front-end traction and not exceed them. Most of the front tire wear comes from not unwinding the steering wheel soon enough in mid-corner to help get you towards track-out and onwards. People turn that wheel even more because they don't recognize understeer when it's smacking 'em in the face. They continue to nail the gas and the poor front tires just grind themselves into rubberized mush. To prevent this, be patient and drive smooth. Treat the accelerator like its a raw egg that will easily break. Only brake in a relative straight line and be cautious about weight transfer and locking up the fronts. Flat-spotting a front means that tire is pretty much history ...

Enjoy the experience and if this is your first pro-touring style event, don't expect to keep up with the "big boys" as they've been doing this for several years now. Drive to your limits and don't "chase a time."

And did I mention I love your wagon ...?

Mary Pozzi

[dontlifttoshift]

So you drop your air pressure to the 20s?? I figured that would cause more sway- something to avoid (?).

Traction trumps tire squirm.....everytime. The air pressure that gives the most traction is the winner, if it "sways" around a little you deal with it.

[Project92rs]

Come prepared to need new tires after the event. If you don't, you don't but plan for it. We're 2 for 3 on needing new tires after an event. Speed stop can be especially brutal if you bring the car in too hot a time or two. I now check tire availability in the area around the event before going just in case I have to replace tires during the event. Our car is one of those that has flatspotted a tire down to the cords. One of our friends has had to drive home on my spares after doing the same to his car.

Expect some rock chips in the paint. There are ways to mitigate this with clear bras and tape but even these don't guarantee you won't get any chips if you spin out hard and leave the track for the dirt.

And have a plan for what you will do if there is a catastrophic failure. This doesn't mean trailer it to the event, it just means put some thought into what your realistic options are if you have a catastrophic failure. People have blown engines and transmissions at the events in the past.

Finally, have a realistic idea of what fluids and spare parts you need to bring along to keep the car running. Check your brake pads before coming and top off all the fluids. Plenty of people at the event will be willing to volunteer tools and hands to turn wrenches but parts unique to your car or serious high performance parts might not be readily available. Again, be realistic about it and only bring what you can realistically expect to break. I carry a spare starter because I don't trust mine, fluids, tires, and tools to support the group I travel with. I may add a backup set of Wilwood pads this year now that 3 of the cars use them and the pads are unique to Wilwood.

[silvermonte]

Is tire wear really going to be that bad? Im doing the ORR in Arnold,Nebraska this summer and about 10 autox events this summer and I will be using tires with 300 tread wear, I was assuming they would last me the entire summer with about 5k miles of DD driving also.I guess if they wont Im going to have to sell a kidney or something to afford tires.

[SicMonte]

ok here we go....

First off don't be afraid to ask any questions when you are at the event. These pro-touring type events are full of wonderful people who will gladly lend a hand!

Before you even think about auto crossing or road racing your car you need to give it a serious once over. Check every suspension bolt there is and engine bolt. Make sure the belts are good as well as the coolant hoses...full of water, not antifreeze, I hope!! Make sure the brake hoses do not contact anything...and check this as you turn the wheel lock to lock. Call it overkill but I change my engine oil, trans fluid, and rear diff fluid before and after every event. I say event as in weekend long autox, speed stop challenge, road course. It gets expensive but I think it is well worth it when I see the condition of my abused fluids. If you are running a automatic trans like I am make sure the fluid level is correct b/c it will get hot and puke out of the vent tube. I was black flagged last year at Mid Ohio for that reason. Make sure you have a huge trans cooler. Even with my hugeXhuge trans cooler with it's own fan, I was seeing trans temps of 230 at Mid Ohio. If you run a HEI style ignition always bring a spare coil and module. Heck...bring two spare modules. I bring every tool that I will need, a full size aluminum jack, jack stands, portable air pump, good Longacre air gauge, and plenty of spare fluids for the car. I run my BFG's at 25psi and they stick like a muther...but tend to wear on the edges. I got through all last season on one set of tires and I plan on using the same set this year.

I will tell you one thing I have learned from the 2012 season. I raced my car an awful lot this season and every event I would find a weak link in my car and would fix that link for the next event. Every event I would find an issue and fix it, constantly tuning the car and making it better. I would tune the carb for air differences, tune the sway bars, the coil overs, the detent cable for shift points...it was constant but really helped me dial my car in. You will hear a lot of new noises from your car at your first autox but don't be alarmed. Remember that it's not every day that you do this to your car so it is expected.

Have fun!!!!

[Project92rs]

Is tire wear really going to be that bad?

Read Mary's post above. Until you get good at it, expect to go into corners too hot and steering out in ways that do bad things to your tires. We let a first time driver take a pass through the autox course in our car at RTTC in March and saw more tire smoke from locked up brakes on that one pass than we saw all day. Pretty sure that contributed to seeing steel cords at the end of the event. If you're good, you can do a lot of events with the same set of tires. At the local SCCA autox events we get 60 - 80 passes out of the race compound tires we use there. On 300+ treadwear street tires at Pro-touring events in the stock size for a 3rd gen Firebird, we end up wearing them to the point of not doing another competition with them by the end of each event.

If you're concerned about it, see if there is a local autox event you can go to before one of the big events and take a practice run through it to see what your tires look like after a few passes. This will also give you a chance to try finding a good tire pressure for the tire you are using.

[Rod]

good thread here

on Tire wear, thats were you have to stop thinking of tires like everyone else (in miles, IE I should get 5000) tires for racing with any serious effort will distroy tires at a rapid pace, you have to think of them as consumable goods like fuel (you should get 18 mpg, but not racing)

Is tire wear really going to be that bad? Im doing the ORR in Arnold,Nebraska this summer and about 10 autox events this summer and I will be using tires with 300 tread wear, I was assuming they would last me the entire summer with about 5k miles of DD driving also.I guess if they wont Im going to have to sell a kidney or something to afford tires.

I burned a complete set of new tires at a RTTC event in the 3 days, and then the next 3 events were all Goodguys and that set was fine for maybe 2 more goodguys events, I used 4 complete sets of tires last year, with practice test and tunes, and 10 track events


what to expect on you first event,
yes bring fluids, power steering will over heat most times unless you have a Power steering cooler
engine belts
extra oil, I run the bigger events like RTTC about a 1/4 to 1/2 a quart extra oil in the motor and make sure its fresh before the event
lug wrench, tire gauge, air pump for air pressure

First off don't be afraid to ask any questions when you are at the event. These pro-touring type events are full of wonderful people who will gladly lend a hand!

Before you even think about auto crossing or road racing your car you need to give it a serious once over. Check every suspension bolt there is and engine bolt. Make sure the belts are good as well as the coolant hoses...full of water, not antifreeze, I hope!! Make sure the brake hoses do not contact anything...and check this as you turn the wheel lock to lock. Call it overkill but I change my engine oil, trans fluid, and rear diff fluid before and after every event. I say event as in weekend long autox, speed stop challenge, road course. It gets expensive but I think it is well worth it when I see the condition of my abused fluids.

Montes right, I dont think its over kill, I also change the all fluids before big events like RTTC, for smaller events like Goodguys I change after 4 events

[silvermonte]

This is great info here.I have accepted that my tires will be a consumable good, I just wasnt sure how fast they would burn up. Being new at this I have no doubts I will be going to fast like every one suggest, thats part of the learning curve. I will prolly just buy some cheap-o tires for the auto cross events at the start of next summer, IIRC I will be able to get in 5 or 6 auto-x days in before the ORR race and Ill save the high dollar tires for that event.I asked Doug in his build thread if he thinks a person should run a catch can for an auto tranny, if that would be worth the time to keep from puking tranny fluid on the track when the heat starts to build up, Im not even sure if it would be possible to do that but since I have about 4-5 months before anything starts I can change a few things.

[SRD art]

It seems a catch can for a trans would be super simple to put together, and probably not a bad idea.

Man, there's some great info here. I got a few ride alongs with Eric Wracker in his killer Duster and his CRAZY driving style last year at RTTH. Man was that an eye opener. So far so is this thread, thanks for the input everyone!

Looks like the vote is unanimous, bring lots of extra stuff. Good thing my car is a wagon... lol!

So normally I run the tires for daily driving around 40 lbs. At track day is there a good (and safe) starting point with air pressure? 30? 25? ...?

Do you guys use different pressures between autox and road course, or is it more one and the same?

Mary- Thanks on the compliments. Please check out my build thread link in my signature. I wish I could throw a parts catalog at it but instead I've had to be real creative on a tight budget. I'm hoping it's competitive, I think I've got a good combination put together. Still a LONG ways to go...

Mary you bring up some good points and spark questions... I haven't been able to get the car in any auto X events this year, so occasionally playing in empty parking lots has had to suffice. Unfortunately I still have the stock open rear in the car so rear tire spin on which ever side's weight is unloaded is limiting how hard I can accelerate through a turn. Despite that I have noticed that the front sticks real well but at some point it starts to understeer, mostly when I accelerated fairly hard into the turn and stayed on it (thanks for correcting that idea). Describing what I felt when the car understeered..."Oh crap, if I let the wheel straighten out I'll go straight into the light pole. If I stay on the throttle I might keep going straight into the light pole anyway. If I let off the throttle the tires will stick, the car will dart to one side, and it'll get all outta shape. So, I guess I just hold on and see what happens..." lol!

Seems I've watched a couple of Mary's videos and it appeared you entered the turn wide and got real tight at the apex. It seemed very smooth. On the rides with Eric he either did that too. Sometimes he just had a blast going into it hard and sliding the rear around to navigate it like a dirt track driver. I've watched other drivers hit the turn tight and come OUT wide. Based on what you said, I'm getting that I brake fairly hard in as straight a line as possible, go into the turn at a moderate speed, get near the apex and get into the throttle? Is this the general rule of thumb?

Thanks again for input, this is great stuff. Everyone please join in and share your insight, I think all us newbies can benefit from it thanks.

[SicMonte]

sooo...how would you go about putting a catch can onto an auto trans? The vent is on the top and is this tiny little tube....just tap into that?

[silvermonte]

sooo...how would you go about putting a catch can onto an auto trans? The vent is on the top and is this tiny little tube....just tap into that?

That is exactly what im thinking, prolly would only work if you planned it from the start during a rebuild tho, im not sure if tapping that little hole would put metal shavings back inside the tranny, but since my tube is busted off, and my tranny is sitting on an engine stand, that thought has crossed my mind more then once, even before you mentioned it happening i just didnt think i would ever need to do something like that since ive never heard of anyone repeatedly having that happen

[SRD art]

Speaking from having TH350s in my cars, the vent tube is plastic and a short tube with a cap on it that pops off, just like a diff breather tube, or they have a short maybe 3" metal tube that's bent at maybe a 75 degree to point down. On the plastic kind simply pop the cap off, slip a rubber tube over and zip tie or clamp it. Then run that tube to the catch can, which should probably be mounted higher than the tranny so anything that pukes into it flows back down. With the metal tube style simply slip the rubber tube over the metal one and do the same as above. My 76 4x4 Suburban had something like this on the axle breathers, a rubber tube went from the axle up to the frame, probably about 24" long. My best guess is it was there to keep water/ mud out of the diff when you went wheelin'.

For my oil breather catch can I went the low buck route. I bought an aluminum bicycle water bottle (lots of cool colors to choose from) trimmed the plastic lid so it was flat instead of having a handle, cut a hole in it large enough to fit a breather grommet in it, then stuck a K&N open element valve cover breather in it. I then plumbed a fitting into it and simply ran a rubber tube from the valve cover to the bottle. A bike water bottle holder is bolted to the firewall to hold the bottle in place. It looks cool and works great. I'd do it the same way for the trans.

This is the only photo I have of it, you can see it to the left of the engine...

[IndyDave]

It seems a catch can for a trans would be super simple to put together, and probably not a bad idea.

Man, there's some great info here. I got a few ride alongs with Eric Wracker in his killer Duster and his CRAZY driving style last year at RTTH. Man was that an eye opener. So far so is this thread, thanks for the input everyone!

Looks like the vote is unanimous, bring lots of extra stuff. Good thing my car is a wagon... lol!

So normally I run the tires for daily driving around 40 lbs. At track day is there a good (and safe) starting point with air pressure? 30? 25? ...?

Do you guys use different pressures between autox and road course, or is it more one and the same?

Mary- Thanks on the compliments. Please check out my build thread link in my signature. I wish I could throw a parts catalog at it but instead I've had to be real creative on a tight budget. I'm hoping it's competitive, I think I've got a good combination put together. Still a LONG ways to go...

Mary you bring up some good points and spark questions... I haven't been able to get the car in any auto X events this year, so occasionally playing in empty parking lots has had to suffice. Unfortunately I still have the stock open rear in the car so rear tire spin on which ever side's weight is unloaded is limiting how hard I can accelerate through a turn. Despite that I have noticed that the front sticks real well but at some point it starts to understeer, mostly when I accelerated fairly hard into the turn and stayed on it (thanks for correcting that idea). Describing what I felt when the car understeered..."Oh crap, if I let the wheel straighten out I'll go straight into the light pole. If I stay on the throttle I might keep going straight into the light pole anyway. If I let off the throttle the tires will stick, the car will dart to one side, and it'll get all outta shape. So, I guess I just hold on and see what happens..." lol!

Seems I've watched a couple of Mary's videos and it appeared you entered the turn wide and got real tight at the apex. It seemed very smooth. On the rides with Eric he either did that too. Sometimes he just had a blast going into it hard and sliding the rear around to navigate it like a dirt track driver. I've watched other drivers hit the turn tight and come OUT wide. Based on what you said, I'm getting that I brake fairly hard in as straight a line as possible, go into the turn at a moderate speed, get near the apex and get into the throttle? Is this the general rule of thumb?

Thanks again for input, this is great stuff. Everyone please join in and share your insight, I think all us newbies can benefit from it thanks.

A lot of what is making others seem so smooth is a well tuned and setup car in addition to advanced driving skills. An open diff shouldn't hurt you as much as it is, it's more a lack of a good setup on the the car. To start with, listen to what everyone is saying about tire pressures, this one tuning tool will yield more results than many sexier hard part "tunes". T.P.s will vary from car to car and driver to driver but it's not hard to dial them in.

What has worked for me is to start around 30 psi cold @ all 4 corners and make a couple of passes. Using a GOOD tire pressure gauge, check the tire pressures with the tires hot. The tires with the highest T.P.s are the ones that are sliding (not gripping the surface) the most. Usually it'll be both front tires or rear tires. The tires with the highest T.P.s drop them 2 psi lower than your starting cold T.P. Make a couple more passes, check T.P.s again. The goal you're going for is a 2-3 p.s.i. increase on all 4 tires. Then the car is neutral. If you feel you need more overall grip, then lower all 4 T.P.s the same amount until you find acceptable grip or times start to slow. Record these final pressures and use them as your starting pressures from now on. Now different surfaces, temperatures, etc effect how the tires work so you'll want to adjust T.P.s. Always recorded your T.P.s and build a notebook to make T.P adjustments even easier.

Once you have a good notebook then you're raceday T.P. adjustments should become easy and go something like this:

-Set initial cold pressures from your notebook
-After first run, adjust for conditions
-subsequent runs, return T.P.s to adjusted T.P.s
-by last couple of runs, T.P.s should stablize and you shouldn't have to adjust at all.

The last helpful hint is to remember this: In Front, Out Back. What that means is if you your problem is when you enter a corner, work on the front of the car, if the problem happens coming out of a corner, then work on the back of the car.

The second big thing that you need to look at is alignment. A good alignment will help car ahndling and grip greatly. Again while every car is different, these specs are usually a good starting point for a dual purpose street driven car:

Camber: 2-2.5deg negative

Caster: 5-10deg positive

Toe: 1/16" to 1/8" out.

A lot of camber won't affect tire wear as much as excessive toe will. Caster is simply used for driver feel, so going for the "max" won't necessarily help performance. Camber affects caster, caster affects toe, so if you have to give up one, I always give up caster.

[SRD art]

Great info Dave!!

[SicMonte]

A lot of what is making others seem so smooth is a well tuned and setup car in addition to advanced driving skills. An open diff shouldn't hurt you as much as it is, it's more a lack of a good setup on the the car. To start with, listen to what everyone is saying about tire pressures, this one tuning tool will yield more results than many sexier hard part "tunes". T.P.s will vary from car to car and driver to driver but it's not hard to dial them in.

What has worked for me is to start around 30 psi cold @ all 4 corners and make a couple of passes. Using a GOOD tire pressure gauge, check the tire pressures with the tires hot. The tires with the highest T.P.s are the ones that are sliding (not gripping the surface) the most. Usually it'll be both front tires or rear tires. The tires with the highest T.P.s drop them 2 psi lower than your starting cold T.P. Make a couple more passes, check T.P.s again. The goal you're going for is a 2-3 p.s.i. increase on all 4 tires. Then the car is neutral. If you feel you need more overall grip, then lower all 4 T.P.s the same amount until you find acceptable grip or times start to slow. Record these final pressures and use them as your starting pressures from now on. Now different surfaces, temperatures, etc effect how the tires work so you'll want to adjust T.P.s. Always recorded your T.P.s and build a notebook to make T.P adjustments even easier.

Once you have a good notebook then you're raceday T.P. adjustments should become easy and go something like this:

-Set initial cold pressures from your notebook
-After first run, adjust for conditions
-subsequent runs, return T.P.s to adjusted T.P.s
-by last couple of runs, T.P.s should stablize and you shouldn't have to adjust at all.

The last helpful hint is to remember this: In Front, Out Back. What that means is if you your problem is when you enter a corner, work on the front of the car, if the problem happens coming out of a corner, then work on the back of the car.

The second big thing that you need to look at is alignment. A good alignment will help car ahndling and grip greatly. Again while every car is different, these specs are usually a good starting point for a dual purpose street driven car:

Camber: 2-2.5deg negative

Caster: 5-10deg positive

Toe: 1/16" to 1/8" out.

A lot of camber won't affect tire wear as much as excessive toe will. Caster is simply used for driver feel, so going for the "max" won't necessarily help performance. Camber affects caster, caster affects toe, so if you have to give up one, I always give up caster.

With that kind of info...you should have wayyyy over 16 posts sir!!!! Share the knowledge...don't hold out on us. =)

[SRD art]

Amen to that!

Are there any books out there, like scca or autocross for dummies? I'm a dummie... lol!

[dontlifttoshift]

Yeah, but they haven't written a good one yet.....you can't learn to drive from a book, you can only learn what not to do.

Seat time, seat time, seat time. See if the local SCCA does an autocross school at the beginning of the season. Go. Hit every SCCA event you can, try other clubs. Seat time is where it's at......even if it is from the passenger seat. Find people that have been doing this a while, ride with them.......get them to ride with you. Pay attention on a ride along, don't enjoy the ride so much as learn from it. When people give you tips listen and try it, even if it sounds dumb.