Wilwood Caliper Alignment

[sjaroslo]

I have an Art Morrison subframe under my 67 Camaro, which uses stock Corvette C6 suspension and brake components. I have the Wilwood 14" brake kit, which I just tried to set up this weekend. My issue is that I can't get the caliper centered over the rotor. The caliper needs to move more towards the centerline of the car, and you can't "shim" for that; the shims only move the caliper outboard. On the driver's side it is off, but I was still able to get the inboard pad in without forcing it (too much) and I can still spin the rotor by hand with it installed, so I'm feeling pretty OK about that. On the passenger side, I can just barely get the pad in without hammering on it, but once in, I can't spin the rotor by hand at all (and the outer brake pad of course slips in super easy). Spoke to Wilwood and they weren't super helpful. I suggested that if I could shim out the rotor (we're probably only talking about 1/16" or so) that would probably work and the tech agreed and said that that kind of product was definitely available from Summit or Jeg's, but didn't tell me what it would be called or who might make it. I've found plenty of motorcyle rotor spacers and a Raybestos shim, but that looks to be designed to cure runout, not spacing, so I'm kind of stumped. I see a few other threads on the same topic but none seem to offer a definitive solution. Suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

Blurry picture shows the offset.

[jpgolf14]

Any company that makes custom wheel spacers should be able to make the rotor spacer without issue. I have used Motorsport Tech in the past (not for rotor spacers) and they were super helpful on custom stuff.

Can you post a picture of the bracket assembly? Maybe they will help with other ideas.

[sjaroslo]

Not sure if this helps.... I've linked to the Wilwood instructions. You can see that the bracket is pretty simple. They recommend starting with 1 shim in place between the bracket and the spindle and adding more, but that would only make the problem worse for me. I've removed the one shim in my photos. I had eventually stumbled on Wheel spacers after I first posted here, but I wasn't sure if they would be suitable to use between the rotor hat and the wheel spindle (do they call it a spindle for Corvette stuff?). Only one I found so far in a 5 x 4.75 that is thin is a cast aluminum model by Gorilla, on Summit.

http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl155.pdf

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GOR-SP601S/

[jpgolf14]

Not sure if this helps.... I've linked to the Wilwood instructions. You can see that the bracket is pretty simple. They recommend starting with 1 shim in place between the bracket and the spindle and adding more, but that would only make the problem worse for me. I've removed the one shim in my photos. I had eventually stumbled on Wheel spacers after I first posted here, but I wasn't sure if they would be suitable to use between the rotor hat and the wheel spindle (do they call it a spindle for Corvette stuff?). Only one I found so far in a 5 x 4.75 that is thin is a cast aluminum model by Gorilla, on Summit.

http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl155.pdf

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GOR-SP601S/

I wouldn't bother with pre-made spacers. Figure out exactly how thick the spacer needs to be and get one custom made. You really want to get that caliper pretty darn close to center.

Either that or mill down the bosses on the spindle. I would probably actually do that, as I prefer not to use spacers.

[sjaroslo]

Thanks for the feedback. I don't disagree that milling down the bosses might be a good approach, but that's a little more than I would feel comfortable signing up for.... After doing a lot of searching, and not feeling completely comfortable with what I was finding, I called Wilwood back, hoping to get a different tech to see if I might get a different approach, but as luck would have it, no. Anyway, I confirmed that a "wheel spacer" was a legitimate and safe solution, then asked him about Wilwood's "Hub Shield" which comes in the proper bolt pattern and is made of steel, available in both .08 and .2 thicknesses, and he agreed that that might be the optimum solution. So I apply for a job at Wilwood Tech Support next week! I agree that having a custom spacer made might be the best solution, but between these shields and the original caliper shims, I think that I'm going to be able to derive a better solution without having to resort to anything custom or machined.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-300-10716/

[Jay@GMR]

Steve,

Do you have the Wheel Speed Sensor mounting plate installed between the hub & the upright? If not, these usually account for about .060" and will push that hub outward along with your rotor which should put you right were you need to be.

Jay

[Jay@GMR]

This is the piece that should be between hub & upright.

[snappytravis]

This is the piece that should be between hub & upright.

Just curious my brakes showed up for my car and I haven't done anything with them yet, would like to know what you figure out with this problem, and the part in the pictures does it come with the brake setup? Thanks

[jpgolf14]

Steve,

Do you have the Wheel Speed Sensor mounting plate installed between the hub & the upright? If not, these usually account for about .060" and will push that hub outward along with your rotor which should put you right were you need to be.

Jay

Well there's your problem!!! Good thought.

[jpgolf14]

Just curious my brakes showed up for my car and I haven't done anything with them yet, would like to know what you figure out with this problem, and the part in the pictures does it come with the brake setup? Thanks

No they don't come with the brakes. They come on the vettes. Remember Wilwood designed this kit for a C6, not a hot rod with C6 hubs slapped on. I would blame whoever designed the front end swap before I blamed Wilwood.

[sjaroslo]

Jay, I'll bet that you are spot-on! Here's what my set up looks like.



Since it isn't technically going on to a late-model Corvette, there is no need for the wheel speed sensor, so that part is not included. I'm assuming that a potential solution for me then would be to pick up a pair of these, trim off the part that holds the sensor, and just use it as a .060" shim between the (black) hub and the (dull gray) upright? Is the hub removal a straight-forward three-bolt job? I'll have to check it out. Thanks for providing a potential superior solution!

[sjaroslo]

No they don't come with the brakes. They come on the vettes. Remember Wilwood designed this kit for a C6, not a hot rod with C6 hubs slapped on. I would blame whoever designed the front end swap before I blamed Wilwood.

I don't think that anyone is to "blame," necessarily, but you're right, I realized late in the day that the one group of folks that I HADN'T talked to about this was the Art Morrison team, who make the subframe and attach all of the suspension goodies. They may have been able to point me towards this much quicker, I just didn't think to get them involved. I may follow up with them tomorrow, but in the meantime, I'll fire up the old search engine and see who is selling this mounting plate.

[diesel25lrs]

I had the same exact problem if i'm reading this correctly... I took the caliper bracket on a belt sander & took a 1/16 off of it evenly & slowly- miking it many times. This worked great as Willwood told me i had their thinnest bracket already.

[Jay@GMR]

Jay, I'll bet that you are spot-on! Here's what my set up looks like.



Since it isn't technically going on to a late-model Corvette, there is no need for the wheel speed sensor, so that part is not included. I'm assuming that a potential solution for me then would be to pick up a pair of these, trim off the part that holds the sensor, and just use it as a .060" shim between the (black) hub and the (dull gray) upright? Is the hub removal a straight-forward three-bolt job? I'll have to check it out. Thanks for providing a potential superior solution!

Yup, that is all you have to do..... trim the mounting tab if you will not be running TC/ABS. You can pick these mounting brackets up at your local GM dealership. I do believe these normally come with the AM C5/6 front clip, and probably just didnt make it into your hands for whatever the reason. Once you install these brackets you will be in business!

[Jay@GMR]

Steve, One more thing just in case you have not caught it. Most of the time you will have to remove a very small portion of material off of the upright "caliper mounting lugs" to get the Wilwood caliper bracket to sit flat. Its not much but does have to be addressed to get the caliper bracket to sit flat. If Wilwood would change their bracket just slightly this mod would not be needed

[dontlifttoshift]

All of the DSE stuff comes with a steel shim between the hub and the upright.....now I know why.

Good catch Jay!

[sjaroslo]

Thanks, Jay. I think that AME has taken care of that already; I don't believe that there is any issue with the bracket not seating flatly and securely. The more that I learn about my subframe the more I suspect that it was sitting around at Prodigy for a very long time and I'm guessing that it has been apart multiple times before I ever got it (loose nuts on tie rod ends, missing cotter pins, rust and scale, etc., etc.), so it is very likely that the shims were there when the thing was new.... I need to get under there and see if it is possible to get the bottom hub mounting bolt out without dismantling the entire front end, however, so that will be the next challenge. Not sure if you can see from the pictures but AME does add some brackets and things on top of the stock C6 stuff so I'll need to see if I can get a wrench on it and if there is room for the bolt to back out (although technically I guess I don't have to pull the bolt if I pull the hub). Too much like fun! Thanks again.

[BADDRIDE II]

All of the DSE stuff comes with a steel shim between the hub and the upright.....now I know why.

Good catch Jay!

Thanks, here is another tid bit.... more trivial info than anything but perhaps may help others in a similar situation that need more caliper centering tunability.

As you know DSE does include a steel gold anodized shim between hub/upright. If you measure the thickness on the DSE shim it is thicker than these OE shims that I have pictured above. They have done this to make sure that one never runs into the situation Steve has, where the caliper bracket/caliper cannot be moved inboard.

By spacing the hub/rotor outboard slightly further than stock like DSE has...... it leaves plenty of room to asure that the caliper can be located/shimmed to perfection!

Another small detail that DSE does to make things a little more user friendly

Oops..... signed in as my personal account..... its tuff having multiple personalities

[jpgolf14]

Jay, I'll bet that you are spot-on! Here's what my set up looks like.

Glad you found the problem. Also, get cotter pins on those tie rods while you are in there.

[sjaroslo]

Glad you found the problem. Also, get cotter pins on those tie rods while you are in there.

Yeah, no kidding, that's how I realized there was an issue, I was trying to extricate my wheel from the hub (it had grown fond of being mated without any brake stuff or hubs there since the car is a "roller") and I was getting a "klunk, klunk" as I muscled it around, and I thought to myself, "Gee, 'klunk, klunk' noises aren't what I would expect from a nice new Corvette front suspension," when I found that this same nut on the passenger side was not even finger tight, which was what was klunking, and then I noticed the marked lack of cotter pins.... Now I need to go track down some torque specs, I think. Hopefully Art Morrison can provide those, since that bolts to a custom part of theirs.