Lets Talk Brake Kits

[The GMR]

Thanks for the links. I was looking for some real technical content though.

Here are a few other links to writings by the founder of Brake Man, Warren. He can be a little abrasive with his writings, but his content is real. There is some real life independent testing done by a Nascar Team that should be posted soon I believe. Either way, He has more then what I'm linking to, but this is all the important info on his site.

http://thebrakeman.com/articles



Honestly, I have never used the Brake Man products or the OEM PBR's. But I have to say, is that site for real?

Yes, Warren has been involved with the higest levels of racing for longer then I have been alive. He is also the gentleman who holds multiple patents that not only the brake man uses but from what I understand maybe a few other "large" manufactures. From Calipers to Rotors, Warren has the patents / results to back up his statements. So take what he says for whats it's worth.
His products have a place, but not with everyone and even I understand that.



I can't really understand why they chose to pick on the 4th gen / C5 / C6 / Mustang STOCK caliper. Those front only kits are $2400. They better perform better. Why don't they compare their stuff to Wilwood FSL, W6A, Brembo GT, CTS-V, PBR Z06, etc... ?

They have on many occasions, the results turned out to produce about 30% more clamping force from the F4 caliper then a high end AP counterpart, and that was at ambient temp (not race temp). The true strength of the Brake Man components are seen at race temperature, where the standard monobloc will loose strength while the Brake Man calipers actually increase in strength with approaching 400deg.

Their stuff may be the best ever. But I am highly skeptical solely based on the fact they compare their stuff to 15yr old OEM stuff. I just checked the price of 2 front PBR calipers and 2 front rotors for a 2000 Corvette, total is about $250.

So lets make this a good discussion. I really don't have any doubt "The Brake Man's" kits are better than stock. But lets gets some good discussion going.

How do they compare to 2009+ CTS-V calipers? Since that is probably the best "easy" swap for a 4th gen. Cost of CTS-V front rotors and calipers is ~$1000. Figure another $500 for pads, lines, brackets.



Sorry I do not have any direct hands on knowledge of the CTS-V calipers so I will not be commenting on any comparison.

Jay, I believe you are a dealer for the Z06 calipers as well. I understand if you would prefer not to comment, but how do you feel about the Z06 vs Brake Man calipers?

Great Question, but I do not classify them in the same field. The OEM Z06 calipers are a great monobloc caliper for the price, arguably the best "bang for the buck" monobloc on the market. For those that really do appreciate the corvette OEM style products I really cant suggest a better caliper other then the Brembo Ceramic packages from the ZR-1. For the "hardcore" applications I will suggest Brake Man, in fact we are working on a package for the pro-touring / road race / drag race market that will be revealed for SEMA.



Finally, the OP is interested in a setup that will allow him to drive street, auto-x, road course without changing pads. I am just not sure if the 12/13" x 1.25" rotors on The Brake Man kits are going to get that done.

Well, the rotor size really is not the issue. I honestly prefer smaller rotors for the race applications, the way I see it, larger is only more rotational mass. Now, for a pro-touring car where the style of the 14 inch rotors is unmatched, I strongly suggest going with equal size rotors front to back. The reality is that depending on how the setup is designed as a whole the overall goal of stopping the car properly will not be an issue. I personally love the look of the large 14 rotors with the PBR monobloc calipers, great performance and the style I prefer. Project BB is running a rear 12.19 by .810 rotor and the owner has reported that since we upgraded the rear end the brake issues were solved.

Sorry for being blunt. I just want to make sure we talk about facts, not marketing.

No problem, its all in good fun and this is what forums are for!

John

thanks
Jason

[jpgolf14]

Sounds good. I'm not surprised Warren knows what he is talking about. I'm just not crazy about his approach.

Regarding the clamping force. That is solely based on hydraulic advantage. In other words, how much piston area the caliper has. All the manufacturers make calipers with different sized pistons.

Example Wilwood FSL caliper. It is available in the following piston configurations.
1.88 / 1.75
1.75 / 1.75
1.62 / 1.62
1.38 / 1.38
1.25 / 1.25
1.12 / 1.12

It is up to the buyer to make sure their system is matched. The problem with big piston area is that is also increases the pedal travel. So it all depends on the whole system and driver preference. Do you want you brakes to be: high effort/short pedal (ie small caliper pistons) or low effort/long pedal (ie large caliper pistons)? The answer is typically somewhere in the middle. That is the beauty of large diameter rotors. You get better brake torque without the downside of the longer pedal. Basically free brake gain. Of course the downside is more rotational and sprung weight. Of course another upside is a larger rotor has more thermal mass, keeping the temperature of the whole system down. This will help keep "street" pads in their temperature range.

I agree, in a race car, run the smallest rotors you can get away with. With the proper pad, run the brakes at 1000+ degrees.

John

[Jay@GMR]

Regarding the clamping force. That is solely based on hydraulic advantage. In other words, how much piston area the caliper has. All the manufacturers make calipers with different sized pistons. Not so, you must also take into account caliper body flex as a MAJOR variable....in an apple to apple comparison (piston size/area), most all competitors calipers will flex (and alot), and will lose much clamping force in comparison to the Brake Man design. So you will see....although others can offer the same piston sizes/area, they cannot offer the level of rigidity the Brake Man caliper body does.

Since you have chosen the below listed FSL (Forged SuperLite) as your comparison....have you ever actually watched one as it clamps down on a rotor? I have, and is why we recommend the Brake Man calipers as a more serious choice. Dont get me wrong, we are a Wilwood dealer as well and sell Wilwood calipers as well, but just figured we would make this recommendation to the original poster as an "option" and was not meant to get you excited. If you have chosen your path for calipers that is fine, but the OP has not.

Example Wilwood FSL caliper. It is available in the following piston configurations.
1.88 / 1.75
1.75 / 1.75
1.62 / 1.62
1.38 / 1.38
1.25 / 1.25
1.12 / 1.12


John

Thanks, Jay

[jpgolf14]

Thanks, Jay

Jay, like you I'm just trying to provide options. I picked the FSL for comparison becasue they are very common on aftermarket kits. I have used them in the past and they are a fine caliper. I have since stepped up to the larger body calipers, entirely for looks, how dumb is that. The Wilwoods were adequate for my stopping needs.

You are correct, caliper flex is a factor and will kill some of the clamping force. I question how much difference you are going to see between a Wilwood, Brembo, Brake Man, Alcon, AP fixed caliper. All of these designs use steel bridge bolts to stiffen the caliper. I have never seen actual flex comparisons. But would be intersted in seeing data if you have it.

I will say that a quality 1 piece caliper is much more expensive than a quality 2 piece caliper. So I applaud The Brake Man for using a two piece design. It is much easier to stiffen the caliper with steel bolts than more aluminum.

Finally I look at the OP's requirements.

A brake kit that can be used on his 4th gen for street, auto-x, and road course. Nowhere do I see a requirement for the stiffest caliper ever made. I'm just trying to suggest kits that meet that requirement. Its all to easy to lose track of what makes a car better "for the driver". We are all guilty of that. I once spent $300 on fabric covers for my hoses. Looks cool but doesn't make the car drive any better.