RideTech 33 Ford

[bret]

Well, we have resolved the spark scatter problem. It was just a rotor phasing problem...no big deal, but took a few hours to identify.



The steering problem was a little tougher. The OEM FFR steering system was apparantly intended to turn a narrow tire. We are using a 295mm tire. When I turned the wheel you could watch the rack visibly flex. It would encounter a significant bind at around a half turn of input. The size of the rack components was compounded by the rear steer configuration, very short steering arms, and the incorrect placement of the rack itself. Totally unacceptable.
After more research and conversation we have decided to cut bait on that system and redo it completely as a front steer Woodward power rack. This will allow exact placement to optimize bumpsteer and Ackerman, as well as providing tuning capabilities for feel. The Woodward components are true racing components that are completely capable of withstanding the forces imposed on them by this car.

I had assumed that FFR had designed this steering system anticipating this kind of use and had not paid a lot of attention to it. After encountering problems I called my friend Chris Alston who was a seriously good source of valuable information. He then referred me to Tony Woodward who spent a couple hours filling me in on the finer points of rack and pinion steering systems. Tony is a classic example of "paying for a degree in steering and getting his parts for free". Knowledgeable, articulate, friendly, experienced, realistic, and able to relate to whatever level of driving you are attempting.

Now we get to spend a few DAYS sawing the frontend off the car and installing a proper steering system. I still hope to make it to Nashville next weekend.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not blaming FFR completely for any of this. Their system would likely work fine with their recommended tire sizes in a "civilian" environment. Obviously we are working with neither. My aggravation is only with myself. I should have not assumed that this part of the car would be any less customized than the rest of it. I should had examined, evaluated, and fixed it months ago.
We will fix it now. It will be cool and fast. Its what we does.

[wiedemab]

I can't remember what the issue was, but several years ago when I was at OUSCI, didn't a FFR '33 have some sort of an issue that caused it to go off track. I want to say it was steering related (tie-rod breakage maybe?), but I may be wrong. Have you had any contact with the folks at FFR? I wonder if they would want to offer some sort of a different optional steering package for wide tire/harsh use situations?

Good luck getting it together for Nashville.

[bret]

I have not talked to anyone at FFR...and I probably should have...my bad. At this point the timeframe to get this thing on the road/track is so short that I didn't feel I had time to go back and forth for several days to find a solution. I had to fix the problem NOW. I have complete confidence this new system will work because I have worked successfully with Chris and Tony before. Also...after I was able to remove my head from my ass, I could see clearly what the problem was and how to truly fix it. It just took some "reminding" to make that happen!

This is a good example of how even an experienced car builder can become the victim of assumptions and oversight [on my part, not FFR].

For someone with a bit more time and a different set of resources, I would absolutely recommend contacting FFR [or whatever appropriate manufacturer] to resolve a serious problem.

I have been told by several [in my own household] that I have a habit of ignoring my own advice

[bret]

I can't remember what the issue was, but several years ago when I was at OUSCI, didn't a FFR '33 have some sort of an issue that caused it to go off track. I want to say it was steering related (tie-rod breakage maybe?), but I may be wrong. Have you had any contact with the folks at FFR? I wonder if they would want to offer some sort of a different optional steering package for wide tire/harsh use situations?

Good luck getting it together for Nashville.

I watched Rob Kinnan crash that car at OUSCI. He went in WAY too fast. I figured he just ran out of track, but it could have been a steering breakage/flex problem, I guess. I never got a chance to discuss it with him after the fact. I have talked to other FFR owners who have raced their cars with no problems, but I do not know at what level they are running.

[wellis77]

Tony is an awesome resource and my Woodward rack is almost art. Good choice on the change.

[feeble]

Bret: You said that the tire is wider than FFR originally designed for the car. If I understand correctly (and I may not be, I am still learning), if you did not increase the offset of the wheel to compensate, would this not increase the increase the scrub radius, making the car harder to steer and increasing the stress on the steering components?

This is the reason I am redesigning the front suspension on my Mustang II project (with Ride Tech coil overs of course.) Which reminds me, I need to get a CAD model for the front shock and coil over, the 5" travel shocks I bought for the rear are too long for the front.

[wiedemab]

I watched Rob Kinnan crash that car at OUSCI. He went in WAY too fast. I figured he just ran out of track, but it could have been a steering breakage/flex problem, I guess. I never got a chance to discuss it with him after the fact. I have talked to other FFR owners who have raced their cars with no problems, but I do not know at what level they are running.

It very likely could have been that he went off track and that is what broke stuff.

I completely understand the timing and needing a solution put in place quickly. - -Tru-Turn for the FFR '33 ;) I hope you make Nashville. That is a great GG show. My daughter's B-day is always the same weekend so until she is old enough and has the desire to go to a car show for her b-day, I'm probably out of luck!

[bret]

Bret: You said that the tire is wider than FFR originally designed for the car. If I understand correctly (and I may not be, I am still learning), if you did not increase the offset of the wheel to compensate, would this not increase the increase the scrub radius, making the car harder to steer and increasing the stress on the steering components?

This is the reason I am redesigning the front suspension on my Mustang II project (with Ride Tech coil overs of course.) Which reminds me, I need to get a CAD model for the front shock and coil over, the 5" travel shocks I bought for the rear are too long for the front.

Ha! Good call! Actually...we lucked out a little on this one. The Speedline wheels [that I found on ebay] hit the Baer calipers, so we built a hubcentric spacer of appropriate thickness to compensate for the extra width and offset in that wheel. In the end the tire centerline is .560" inboard from the SAI/ground intersection. Opinions vary, but that dimension is within a decent range for street tires and the weight of the vehicle. It was about 2" before we built that spacer.

[1971novaSS]

Good to see someone built my dream car. Love everything about it! Top notch! Maybe someday I'll start to build a car half as good.

[jorge]

The new steering rack came in today. It looks beastly! Should solve our problems.

Here are some pictures from this week:

[dougnugent1]

This is a hotrod that can truely be put in that class of badass. Very nice work. Please post videos of it on the track. Hopefully will be a project of mine one day.

[bret]

Were in the middle of installing the Woodward front steer rack this weekend. Its a fair amount of work, but nothing a sawzall and a 2 million dollar machine shop can't fix. Its looking like we'll have to move the grille shell/radiator a couple of inches forward. Sounds harder than it is. [thankfully] I think we'll make it for Nashville.

Kurt got the interior door panels done on Friday. I'll get pictures up on Monday. They look just as cool as we had envisioned! We still have to paint the dash and make a rivited insert for it...and make some emblems for the seats...and the artwork on the doors. All in good time. Racin's first...it's gotta run good before anyone cares how it looks!

[ace_xp2]

Well, I guess it's handy that those spindles appear to have bolt on steering arms then!
About the rack flex, how was it flexing? was it bending across the whole rack? or just outside the mounts?
I ask because it looks like the one mount on the rack can slip left to right, so for others maybe moving that mount out could help a little.
The half turn bind sounds like it was u joint bind to me.

[LeighP]

Wow, that new rack IS a work of art!

[jorge]

The Rack is still being installed on the 33, its taking some time to get it to fit right. But all is still going according to plan.
Got a few pictures from this week + pictures of the new door paneling.

[A.I.I.]

Wow, this car is amazing.

?, are you guys running a scatter shield between the tranny and the tunnel?

[bret]

The bellhousing is magnesium. The clutch is a 5 lb. 5.5" carbon fiber triple disc clutch and an 8 lb steel flywheel . The reason we don't need a "traditional" 38 lb. .250 wall steel bellhousing is the rotating mass of the small diameter lighweight carbon clutch/flywheel is exponentially smaller than the traditional 12" diameter clutch/flywheel unit that weighs 50lbs. When a 50 lb/12: diameter mass rotating at 8000 rpm decides not to do that anymore, it takes that thick hunk of steel to prevent limb amputation. If the 13 lb/5.5" unit come apart, the most painful thing is the sound of your checkbook being pried open [again].

The additional benefit of the lightweight clutch is that this engine gains RPM like an F1 car. It will see 8000rpm on a simple throttle blip. And the street manners are not terrible. It takes a little getting used to, but I would easily drive this thing in city traffic. Another benefit is that this unit will control up to 1200 lb ft. of torque.

Downside? This Tilton unit is around $7,000. I found mine on ebay off a used ARCA racer for $1500. It took a little thought and machine shop time to mate everything up correctly, but that's what hotrodding is!

For those who want a "bolt it in and go" solution...we recently put a Centerforce Dyad clutch in the 48 Hour Camaro. THAT is a nice piece...and it drives like butter!

Man, that was a longassed answer to a simple question, wasn't it?

[bret]

As for the Woodward rack installation...its not for the meek. Woodward make the best racks in the business, bar none, BUT it is a racecar part and needs above average talent and resources to install correctly. You cannot order a rack for a 69 Camaro [or any other specific application]...their components are manufactured and sold by dimensional data.
On the 33 Ford we made the decision early on [after we discovered the inadequecies of the oem rack system] to do whatever it took to do this steering system right. This meant basically sawing off the front of the car and starting over. After the radiator and grille shell were out of the way, things cleared up nicely. Removal of a few more brackets and tubing cleared a path for proper placement. To determine proper placement we modeled the frontend digitally nad ran the data through our suspension analyzer program. This told us exactly where the rack needed to be in every axis. We fabricated the neccessary mounts to put it there, ran the suspension through it's travel, and determined that there was less than .015" of bumpsteer through 6" of suspension travel. Winner!
This also meant fabricating a set of custom steering arms to get the ackerman and bumpsteer optimized. Not a huge deal if you have a CAD guy 25 ft away and a CNC mill in between the two of you.

Is it worth it? Obviously, because the alternative is that I have an expensive paperweight. [That would be a car that you can't steer]

I point all this out not to explain how smart we are [we're not...if we were, we would have identified and fixed this problem months ago] but to demonstrate that sometimes hotrodding takes a little perserverence, a little money, a little talent, a lot of help from your knowledgable friends. Something to consider when you have to round the corner on a bracket or enlarge a bolt hole to get some aftermarket part bolted on your Camaro.

Will we make it to Nashville Goodguys this weekend? I think so.

[ace_xp2]

...Downside? This Tilton unit is around $7,000. I found mine on ebay off a used ARCA racer for $1500. It took a little thought and machine shop time to mate everything up correctly, but that's what hotrodding is!

The other thing about the carbon/carbon clutches is the material tends to shred rather than shatter, so in the event it goes ejection is even more unlikely.
I got my quartermaster version off a (now defunct) ASA racer, it's supposedly already set up for an LS motor. What did you need to do to get it on an SBF?

[bret]

Well...the clutch itself had the correct spline for the Rankin NASCAR trans we used [can't remember the exact spline right now] so that was fine. We used the LS flywheel it came with and redrilled the bolt pattern for the Ford crank. This engine is a zero balance unit so that was not a big deal either. The only real trickery was getting a bellhousing/starter/ring gear to work together. The bellhousing that came with my ebay find was for an LS engine so that was a non player. I found a mag bellhousing on ebay but it was for a larger flywheel system that couldn't work with the tiny clutch. So...we used an LS flexplate, redrilled it for the Ford crank [like the flywheel] and sandwiched it between the flywheel and the crank, making all the neccessary spacers/pilot hubs, etc.
Worked perfect!