The OneLapCamaro - 2012 Updates... we're back at it!

[James OLC]

The layout of the disks make it practically impossible to mess up the installation and gets around the often frustrating dual disk alignment issues that came with the old clutch…



The inner disk sits within the flywheel…



which has been substantially lightened. Although it’s not a fair comparison because of inertial considerations, the steel Centerforce flywheel weights only 1 pound more than the old aluminum flywheel. The removal of the weight from the outer edge should reduce the rotating inertia substantially…



It feels like I’ve posted this picture before…





When we pulled the transmission we found a small bit of pilot bearing on the input shaft… well… in for a penny…

[James OLC]

And for the record… a half wrap weighs about 5 pounds…

[BADDRIDE II]

One thing I didn't like the Moser stuff when I got it was the fact that I was running 1/2 studs with 5/8 holes on the drive plates. So when the torque of the axles pushes the drive plates, the only thing holding the drive plate to the hub is the little tapered hex screws. I know Payton King has the same set up I do on the AMX and has already sheared the screws once. My plan is to take the extra set of bolt pattern holes and tig in some 5/8 hardened dowels to interlock the the drive plate to the hub.

Your setup has massive stud holes in the driveplates, it does have 5 tapered screws instead of Mosers 2, hopefully that makes a difference, although it looks like your hubs are aluminum vs. Mosers steel. I hate writing negatives in on someones cool new parts, I am truely just trying to watch your back, knowing how much you drive your stuff. Ron

Good point.

[TheJDMan]

Hey James, have always loved this car, always thought of it as a much, much classier version of my Mustang. LOL Was checking out these pics because I'm getting ready to do a full floater also for my blue car, I put a Moser floater in the AMX I'm building.

One thing I didn't like the Moser stuff when I got it was the fact that I was running 1/2 studs with 5/8 holes on the drive plates. So when the torque of the axles pushes the drive plates, the only thing holding the drive plate to the hub is the little tapered hex screws. I know Payton King has the same set up I do on the AMX and has already sheared the screws once. My plan is to take the extra set of bolt pattern holes and tig in some 5/8 hardened dowels to interlock the the drive plate to the hub.

Your setup has massive stud holes in the driveplates, it does have 5 tapered screws instead of Mosers 2, hopefully that makes a difference, although it looks like your hubs are aluminum vs. Mosers steel. I hate writing negatives in on someones cool new parts, I am truely just trying to watch your back, knowing how much you drive your stuff. Ron

Ron,
I have the same Moser floater which has the same 5/8" drive plate holes with 1/2" studs. I looked at the setup and determined that the torque would all be concentrated on the two 1/4" drive plate bolts just like you stated. My first thought was that I needed to put bushings on the studs to support the drive plate. I looked around and checked McMaster-Carr but I was not happy with the busings I found. So my next thought was to turn my own bushings. While trying to make bushings I began to think of ways to keep them in place. Ultimately, my fix was to buy a dozen 1/2"-20 nuts. I then took a 3" grade 8 1/2-20 bolt and cut off just the head. I then chucked the bolt shoulder minus the head in my lathe to use as a spindle to hold the nuts. I then threaded 4 or 5 nuts at a time on the treaded section of bolt. This allowed me to hold the nuts while I turned the flats off and took them down to 5/8". In effect I made bushings with 1/2-20 threads internally. I then simply threaded these busings all the way to the base of each stud and then slipped the drive plate back on. The drive plate is now fully supported by all five studs. Total cost maybe $4 for the nuts and bolt.

Just something on the Baer floater that caught my attention is that there is virtually no bearing seperation in the hub. This spacing is going to increase the loading on the wheel bearings. The Moser floater and every other conventional circle track floater has somewhere around two or three inches between the bearings. This hub bearing seperation is very similar to a conventional front wheel bearing/spindle set up. Time will tell if the Baer and Speedtech bearing configurations will hold up to extreme latteral loading.

[BADDRIDE II]

Great looking set up James, mine is on the water at the moment,and it should be here in a couple of weeks.

Greg

Cool, perfect set-up.

[James OLC]

Bad - please take your issues elsewhere and don't balls up my thread with your typical bs. We get it... all hail the hypnotoad... but this is real life and not a Highlander sequel... There can be, and will be, more than one.

[BADDRIDE II]

Was just trying to help and share some knowledge (I actually have a fix for your issue but guess BAER who has done such a stellar job can help you out) . Some of YOU guys obviously know everything and need to learn the expensive/hard way I guess. I dont blame you for being so defensive, I would be a little bitter too considering all your past issues with rears.

[Greg from Aus]

Bad Ride,

You have a real attitude problem that you need to nip in the bud, I am sure some of you comments are valid, but I here Blah Blah Blah, because you come across so badly.

Sorry for the hijack James.


Greg

[TheJDMan]

The guys have a valid point with respect to the Baer drive plate not being in contact with the studs. Stop and think about how the power flows from the axle to the wheel. Every bit of torque is transmitted from the axle to wheel via the drive plate. If the drive plate is not in direct contact with the studs that touque load is carried by the (in Baer's case) five retaining screws. Since the drive plate is not locked in place by the studs, the torque will eventually cause the drive plate to work loose which in turn will likely make the wheel come loose. It will be interesting to see what happens here. The OLC will be a good test of the Baer floater design.

[James OLC]

I'll make a couple of quick comments - since this has been a topic of conversation since Ron posted last week. I have a ton of respect for Ron - not only has he dome more with less then most of us realize, he is an exceptionally thoughtful and skilled fabricator so... when he expressed his concern... we looked in to this in more detail.

First off... Fom an engineering point of view - assuming proper installation - this is not a question of bolts in shear. It is a question of bolts in tension. The drive plate assembly is a "bolted joint" and in this case is secured by the combination of five 5/16 bolts as well as five 1/2 studs. If there is a shear force acting on any of these bolts - including the wheel studs - the failure has already occurred. Just like there is no shear on wheel studs - wheels are affixed to the car via tension at the wheel stud, not in shear (i.e. cragar unilugs). Wheel studs brake/shear and wheels come off not because you somehow overcame the shear strength of the studs, rather the wheels were loose (no longer a bolted joint) and they moved.

So no - I am not concerned about the design. If the 5/16 bolts are tight on day 1 and if the wheel is properly torqued I believe the system is sound. That being said we will monitor it for the first few track events and will continue to monitor it over time.

Second... If the 5/16 bolts were to somehow shear the wheel is not going to come off unless it's loose (see above).

And, for what it's worth bad, I don't consider my posts or history to be at all scripted. I do resist the temptation to make overtly negative posts for any reason but I have no issue admitting when we encounter problems. Which, if know anything about me, is often enough (I did just admit that I had the rear brakes on backwards after all. But I do make a conscious decision not to make pointless and/or inflametory posts that do nothing to improve our community. I grew out of that phase long ago.

I will keep everyone posted on how things go and if we do decide to my,e some modifications based on our experience or for piece of mind I will certainly share that information.

Cheers

[BADDRIDE II]

First off... Fom an engineering point of view - assuming proper installation - this is not a question of bolts in shear. It is a question of bolts in tension. The drive plate assembly is a "bolted joint" and in this case is secured by the combination of five 5/16 bolts as well as five 1/2 studs. If there is a shear force acting on any of these bolts - including the wheel studs - the failure has already occurred. Just like there is no shear on wheel studs - wheels are affixed to the car via tension at the wheel stud, not in shear (i.e. cragar unilugs). Wheel studs brake/shear and wheels come off not because you somehow overcame the shear strength of the studs, rather the wheels were loose (no longer a bolted joint) and they move.Cheers

All do respect, wheel studs do "sheer" all while the lug nuts remain tight....this applies to semi-floaters and or full floaters. This is why one upgrades from 7/16" to 1/2" or even 1/2" to 5/8" wheel studs (allowing increased wheel torque....but when the hammer is dropped....wheel torque alone is not enough). So "assuming" BAER does have space between the drive plate and wheel stud.....you are relying on (5) 5/16" bolts anchored into aluminum. Think about it......would you run 5/16" wheel studs? I would definately keep a very close eye on this. Thank goodness it is a full floater and you would not lose a wheel.

Remember, this same type scenario, less (3) 5/16" bolts just proved to FAIL for Payton (and doubt his lug nuts were loose)....I hope you dont really think these 3 additional 5/16" bolts will make all the difference.

This is not about who has a better set-up as you few guys keep throwing out there....it SHOULD be about hard working people getting trouble free products. If race icons like you minimize these type issues, people with little to no knowledge of products may spend hard earned money on something that really is NOT ready to be released based on your confidence alone on these products. So please try being open minded, and I personally would appreciate just what you are doing....testing the part for others to learn from (good or bad)....but when valid questions are asked or valid potential issues are brought up....do not get defensive. Its not like you made the part, when you get so defensive it looks to me like you are in kahoots with BAER and at all costs will not acknowledge potential negatives in fear of "burning a bridge"....even when it could effect many others money/safety that respect you. I'll leave it alone now. Never intended to get such a reaction.

[James OLC]

Great edits... Thanks

I don't know about being defensive... I just tried to relay the engineering concept behind bolted joints - which are used throughout our cars (most pulleys, the flywheel, the clutch, the wheels, and in this case the drive plate, etc.) - to explain why I'm not trying to solve a problem which I am not convinced exists with this design. And to expand on that engineering concept - the size (diameter), grade, thread, and engagement depth can all influence the strength of the bonded joint - hence utilizing larger diameter wheel studs for greater strength at equal torques. Again, while wheel studs may shear (most often due to improper torque (too much or too little) or fatigue (commonly from heat or repetition) or damage) they are not loaded in shear and the reasoning for increasing their size or grade is to improve their tensile strength - not their shear strength.

And I don't know about being bitter... I had an axle seal fail once but can't recall any other issues that I've had with the rear end. I actually enjoy my car - including the challenges it sometimes gives - and the circumstances of that failure - and it's resolution - will be a highlight of my experiences with the OLC for the rest of my life. Likewise the alternator issue the year before. Or the clutch at Del Mar in the spring.

And I've never said that the Baer design is perfect, or that it is better than any other, or that it's worth a half second a lap. I have said that I have it, we've installed it, and that we will be beating on it regularly for the foreseeable future. I have said that I am comfortable with the design and also that we will be testing it, watching it, and may modify it if experience shows that its warranted. If I did not feel confident in the parts I would not have them on my car - regardless of who designed them, built them, or assembled them.

[Rod]

cars looking awesome James!! cant wait to see it up close and look at the updates