Question for the PT crowd?

[Off Duty]

I've been hanging around here for a while, and have seen some absolutely amazing builds.

While I absolutely love the 1st and 2nd gen Camaros and 'Birds, I also have a love for the boats, the Impalas, Chryslers, and big Fords, not routinely associated with "road hugging" performance.



I've had the desire to get back into the "fray" lately and have been wanting to do something a bit different.

Recently, I found a 1965 Ford Thunderbird Coupe very close to me.
It's ready for paint, but doesn't run, and was the lady's husbands "project" before he passed away.

The price is right, and the body seems to be solid from what I see in the pics.
I'm going to look at it on Thursday.

I did some searching here and found one very short thread on a 65 Bird build, and I don't think it was followed up.

I've looked all over the net, but apparently no one has bothered to PT one of these cars.

So here's the question!

What does the PT.com crowd think of the potential for such a ride?
To start with, it's a heavy SOB at over 4k lbs!
So, I'm thinking some weight reduction in the form of some CF is going to be in order.

Of course, a modern power plant and running gear goes without saying.
Any suggestions there?

For the chassis, I'm thinking a tubbed rear and bags, if not a full on custom build?

Intended uses:
Sure, I want it to corner well.
I want it to be quick.
And I want to be able to get in, put the wife and grand kid in, and go to a show or event, or across the freaking country, in style and comfort

Something "different"
Something "unique"

Give me your ideas, suggestions and your feedback please.

TIA

[cheapta]

I think it sounds awesome-a real "outside the box" car. At that weight you may not ever get it to keep up with some of the more agile PT cars through the cones or down the quarter mile but you can definitely improve the all around performance. If you're serious about corner carver maybe a Scwartz chassis?
Good luck and keep the pictures coming

Peter

[Off Duty]

It's definitely a boat, and not an auto crosser by any means, but that's what I'm thinking too.
In the spirit of "pro-touring" as I've read it here, it's a car that will do several things pretty well, no one thing best, and is able to be driven daily or cross country with the comfort and reliability of a newer car.

For a track car, I'd prefer a 2nd gen camaro or bird, or a C3 vette.
I'd planned initially to the vette, but my granddaughter likes to tag along to shows and such, and there's just not enough seating, and I don't want to trailer it everywhere. Where's the fun in that?

The 2nd gen was and still is, one of my favorites, but I keep looking at this old Bird and thinking....damn!!!
That could be

I had a 62 Impala as a kid, and a few heavier cars growing up, so I pretty well know the limitations.

Just wanted to do something different.

Can you fill me in on the Scwartz chassis please?

Anyone else have some suggestions?

Here's the base platform (not "the" vehicle) I'd be starting with.



Give me some ideas

[baz67]

Katz had a 63 or so Riv and it was a blast to drive. I say you are on the right track.

[NJSPEEDER]

That would be a sweet PT car.

You will have some challenges with the weight but remember that a lot of the modern stuff is way lighter than the classic parts. So many more things are made out of aluminum that you will save 100+lbs in engine and trans alone. You can also manage the weight with a lot of tire, there are drag guys that throw 275/60-15 DR's and stockers with 30x9 slicks without any modding to the wells.

Always loved the look of that generation of T-bird. I say go for it and good luck.

-Tim

[Off Duty]

Thanks Tim, and the rest of you for the support.

The cars look best with the fender skirts on, so I'm not too sure about stuffing much in there without a tub. then again, that'll be fine too

I'll be looking at the car this week.
The $$$'s right, so if the body/frame are even close to decent, it's mine and I'll post pics ASAP.

Keep the suggestions coming please.
I have a few ideas of my own spinning around in my head, that I think would make this an awesome ride.

Also, I pm'd one of the people here that do renderings, but haven't heard anything back.
I know there's some serious talent here, so if any of you rendering types are available, please shoot me pm.

I'd love to see how some of these ideas might look on paper.

Thanks.

[tylers88]

I think it would have a lot of potential to be a fun quick car, the 5th gen F bodies are over 4000lbs so you could be looking at a decent range being able to hang with a new Camaro, Mustang or Challenger since they're stacked pretty even for performance.

[Off Duty]

I think it would have a lot of potential to be a fun quick car, the 5th gen F bodies are over 4000lbs so you could be looking at a decent range being able to hang with a new Camaro, Mustang or Challenger since they're stacked pretty even for performance.

Thanks, I never thought about the weight comparisons.
The aerodynamIcs should be close as well since both have large frontal areas.

My preference would be the lsx platform for an engine, but keeping it all ford would be cool as well.
Lot to think about.

[The Stickman]

Just do it. With a well thought out plan and parts there is no reason you can't make it work. My wagon is just over 4k and handles great. It needs more power but the chassis is well sorted and balanced. Could use more tire though both in size and grip.

[mc84_zz4]

I'd love to see a recent (2000 or so) cobra supercharged engine in there.
With a pulley swap, exhaust, and a chip you are hitting 500 HP
That should rock the boat pretty well. Love the project idea too BTW
:

[Off Duty]

How about a TT'd version of that cobra engine?

[BulldawgMusclecars]

A TT'd Cobra motor, with a 6 speed trans and a Schwartz chassis would be an awesome combination. I for one would like to see a "different" car like this taken to that level, instead of yet another Camaro or Mustang.

[Off Duty]

A TT'd Cobra motor, with a 6 speed trans and a Schwartz chassis would be an awesome combination. I for one would like to see a "different" car like this taken to that level, instead of yet another Camaro or Mustang.

...Then this it shall be!

And the search begins...
I'll get some pic up of the one I'm going to look at on Thursday.

[Bill Howell]

I read your post and thought I would chime in. I am certainly one that thinks outside the box so first, I am glad to see others do it.
I would suggest this, if you really want a car you can track and compete with, this is not the right choice. I have spent way too much money on my 72 Charger, but finally realized that I just can not overcome the weight and more importantly, length of my car. If you want a touring car, that will get looks, be different and be a blast to drive, you are dead on the money here. My first build, 65 GTO convert, was just that, never meant to be on a track, but certainly was the best road trip hotrod I have ever had. ridetech setup, with bags and swaybars would probably be all you need suspension wise and will ride like a dream. Late model drive train, mini tub and you are done.

[Off Duty]

Bill,

Thanks for chiming in.
I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions, and the professionals like yourself and Bulldawg above, just confirm to me that I'm on the right track.

I'm not going to fool myself into believing that this is a "track car" by any stretch of the imagination.
A 1/4 miler, with a LOT of work, maybe, but never anything that would be competitive in a short, twisty course

You've pretty much nailed the purpose of this build.

I want to be able to load the wife, grandbaby, and some luggage, get in, turn the key, and drive to California if I so desire!
All without having to worry so much about dependability and reliability, and be able to do so in comfort and "style."

Yeah, I like to turn heads
A friend of mine once said, "you've always had an 'interesting' car"

I've had some boats in my day too, from a 63 Impala SS, and a 71 Superbee through 2- 77 Grand Prix's.
I like the comfort and styling and the ROOM.

I've also spent my time hauling a 2000 Z28 and an 87 Corvette through the cones on more than one occasion, and trained multitudes of officers to do similar crap with fully equipped patrol vehicles, from dodges to Crown Vic's.
Even had an undercover Jag thrown in the mix...( what a pig at low speeds and in tight turns!)

As for the weight and size of this thing, a lot of that can be addresses with "special materials."
Then again, how much coin do you put into a rig, and what do you want to lose in the compromise?

My true loves are the 2nd Gen Camaro's and Firebirds.
The one's I've seen here and on Nasty Z28 make me
One day, I'll build one, and it'll be a weekend, track/show/fun car.
If it goes cross country, it'll do so on the back of a trailer

But for now, I'll be happy just being a little "different", cruising the coutryside, and occasionally blowing the doors off some poor unsuspecting fool with "grandpa's" hot rod....

As a final note, I have some of the folks here to thank, or to blame, for my sudden change of direction

After seeing several of the "heavy metal" rides done up in PT style on the board, the bug bit.

I actually started looking for another 63 Impala.
Later I looked at the 60's Impy's and Biscayne's, and even started looking at the real heavy iron, the 50's model Fords, Chrysler's, Chevy's and Pontiac's.
My parents had a 56 Pontiac Chieftain as I was growing up, and my dad had a sweet Bonneville 4 door.
The thought of revisiting my childhood was definitely there.

Then one day, while randomly perusing porn, uh, I mean cars, I ran across a 65 T-bird.
It was nothing special, but it hit me like a brick....That's it!!

No one does them (thus the different theme), they're cheap (as compared to a 2nd gen Camaro/Firebird) and they're BIG & HEAVY...everything you'd want in a Pro-Touring machine, right?

So there you have it.

Thanks for all the support and suggestions.
Please, keep it coming.

As soon as I make a decision, I'll post the pics and start a thread.......this is gonna be fun...I think?..

[Scott Parkhurst]

An aftermarket chassis is what it'll take to work. Keeping it all Ford is cool- and late-model Mod motors certainly have potential.

I like turbos with automatics- not so much with stickshifts. You can't load up or maintain boost as easily, and the boost might come up on you when you least expect it- like on corner exit when modulating power is pretty critical.

A supercharger (Roots or centrifugal) would be more predictable and linear with a stick trans.

I'd love to see a car like this built, but keep your expectations honest. You see the F-bodies with loads of CF, excellent aftermarket chassis, and ample power winning P-T events. Your car probably won't dominate them. You can't honestly expect to win against them (especially since the best drivers seem to favor them as well...). If you're okay with that, then build the car and enjoy it for all it's worth!

Take it from a guy with a station wagon- I love to go to P-T events, but I have no dreams of beating anyone. I recently finished 20th out of 32 cars at the Heidts event in Joliet. A friend asked if I felt bad finishing 20th out of 32 cars, and I told him I feel worse for the 12 cars that got beat by a station wagon than I do for myself.

I push my car as hard as I'm capable, and my driving talent is just as limited as my car's performance is. I have no aspirations of greatness, but I have more fun than should be allowed. The great thing is that the events teach you to be prepared and how to tune your car. I just won the Car Craft RSE because none of the big players with F-bodies showed up, and my car was ready to do it's best in every event. I won 2 of the 3 events and the RSE title because my crew chief and I knew how to tune the car for each challenge. We got the max out of it, and knew we'd done our best. In this case, that was enough (just barely) to win. All the other events were worth this education.

[Off Duty]

Scott,
Again thanks for sharing your input.

As you may have read in my posts (I know-they're freaking llooooooonnggg-)
I have no misunderstandings regarding the capabilities or potential of this build.

It's a "for fun" build.
Something to be a little different.
Something hopefully interesting, that will make people go Cool!
Not something you'd see every day, and hopefully comfortable, with the ability to carry over two (2) people and luggage, and still be a kick in the pants to drive

Dominate isn't even in my vocabulary (well, there was this "lady" once..).

It think it'll be a neat platform to test some theories as well regarding big cars, weight & balance and overall performance.

To me, it's the difference between a "go fast" and a trawler.
They'll both get you where you're going, but in their own distinct way.
One obviously faster than the other, but both providing their own level of excitement and intrigue along the way.

And when they tie off at the dock, both will garner their own crowd of interested followers

[Off Duty]

Any other thoughts on the build before I wrap this one up?

[SRD art]

This is a fantastic build. I think there's really 2 types of pro-touring cars- ones that are great on a track and leave some comfort out of the equation. Then there are those that have the look and some decent, whoa, go, and better than stock cornering capabilities, but also have the comfort for cruising. Having both worlds equals fat wallets. I remember in high school when I was building my Nova to go fast a friend bought a stock 67 Caprice from an old guy. I was so jealous of him, that thing looked great, was a blast to cruise in, and floated down the road.

This particular 'Bird has some of the most unique features of any car of it's day. It's almost like it's in a category by it self, different than anything else. With the right stance, color, and some wide billet wheels it would be an insanely cool cruiser. I can also picture it in my mind with the full PT track killer look, low, sleek and mean. The car already reminds me of Jaws or something, like it's coming up behind to rip your rear bumper off. I'm with you though, even if you go for the ultra mean track look it should be built to cruise.

Either way, I say go for it. This coming from a guy who's first fast car was a street driven '73 4 door Nova sleeper that ran 11's and now I'm building a station wagon to hang with Corvettes in the curves. Unique is a good thing!

[NOT A TA]

I wouldn't do it Gordon. For several reasons. I like the "unusual" builds, and I do like 61-66 T-birds, BUT......

1. Although we don't expect to ever get our money back out of these types of cars, the unusual vehicles take an even bigger hit than the more popular models, and take much longer to sell if you decide you want out. The more heavily modified the car is, the harder it is to find that one person who wants it. I don't think there's a line of buyers waiting to buy fully PTed versions of a 65 T-bird. How much time & money do you think the gentleman that passed away had in the car already vs. what it is for sale for?

2. The finishing of a car with the mods discussed above will take time, LOTS of time. Unless you have a shop build it, or have a tremendous amount of free time, 1-2-3 or more years would be a rather speedy build of the scope mentioned in posts above. The grandaughter will be years older before you can even drive the car. She will reach an age where hanging with friends will probably take priority over car shows with gramps in how long? Meanwhile instead of taking her to car shows or whatever with your free time you'll be wrenching.

3. Since you did mention you're a grandpa, we can assume you're not 20-25-30 years old with many decades of time for future builds. Whats the realistic likelyhood of building another car that you really like AFTER a build of the T-bird with the scope discussed previously? Would it make sense to get in a car with a higher initial cost that you could enjoy immediately? With the costs of a frame, suspension, driveline, wheels/tires, and paint job added to the initial cost of the car you will probably be in it for 20 thousand or more . You could buy a nice driver of a model that you like more than the T-bird, and slowly make mods that will improve handling, speed, and braking WHILE you enjoy driving it to shows, events, etc.

4. CHROME! Lots of it, and it's expensive to have redone. Have you really looked at how much chrome is on/in a 65? I would not be surprised at a bill for several thousand dollars to get all the chrome redone. The bumpers are massive and the interior of 65's are overloaded with chrome. With the humidity where you live constant care of the replated chrome will be mandatory if you expect to keep it nice.

MY OPINIONS: If you're dead set on building a 61-66 T-bird you might want to look at the slightly earlier ones. I prefer the exterior lines and interior styling of the 61-63's with the curved dash that wraps into the door panels creating a "pod" on each side of the console for the driver and front seat passenger. You really have to sit in one to appreciate it, very comforting. The 61-3 front end seems more gracefull and appears more aerodynamic from the side because of the way the front fenders come to a point on the sides of the headlights. I also like rear fender wingettes and the jet engine inspired tail lights. I'd only do a vert in any of the 61-66 cars. In my opinion, that generation of T-birds look like they were designed as verts and then they stuck a hardtop on them.