PHR: ATS spindle ad

[yody]

man $900 didn't realize they were so expensive, and to play devils advocat, since when did upper control arms cost $900? more like $450.

[TitoJones]

Taken from DSE's website:
Front tubular arms- $650
Lower tubular arms- $575
Total: $1225

From Global West:
Uppers- $499.00
Lowers- $649.00
Total- $1148.00

From Speed tech:
uppers- $489.00
Lowers- $599.00
Total- $1088.00

I was being generous on the $900 mark.
Tubular arms are no longer needed on 1st gen F body cars when the AFX spindle is used.

Tyler

[yody]

Okay, you spindle is very nice, and not to downplay it at all, just playing the other side, but how do you add on the lower control arms? what about your spindle changes the need/not need for lower control arms?

[wickedmotorhead]

HAHA Jody

You are correct for the most part lower control arms do nothing for geometry (with the exception of DSE's with the added caster). Typically control arms are bought together as a set and Tyler was making a mere common comparison. Obviously geometry is not the only comparison here. You are getting a lot more benefits from the spindle other than that (i.e. sealed LARGE bearing pack, lightweight, bolt on C5 brakes, etc.).

The AFX Spindle is just another way of getting the similar results with a few added benefits. We are not discrediting the control arms just pointing out how our spindle corrects the geometry as well. We have measured the camber/caster curves and pivot points for Stock, Gulstrand, DSE, GW, and Speetech arms and we know how our geometry stacks up. More trick components coming soon!

Shane

[yody]

so basically its like this;
your spindle =$850
OR
tubular upper control arms/gmod$500 plus some work
stock spindle with drum brake hub possibly free, or hubs=$50
speedtech or other co. caliper adapter bracket, more work=$100
=$650 but requires a bunch of work.
but with yours, you get the light weight/stronger, and its easier, and you get the nice bolt on hub.
hmmmmm, i like the spindle more and more, however can you use tubulars with the spindle or do you get too much castor?

[wickedmotorhead]

Sorry I meant to type Cody above.

No caster will not be a problem, you can use others tubulars with our spindle, but it is not necessary. The caster is controlled by the control arms or shim stack (unless you get into mechanical trail). We will be taking care of the caster with a cross shaft for the stock control arm for those that don't want the huge shim stack as opposed to buying a complete control arm just to get the added caster. Plus most people will like the ability to get the GW Delalum bushings for the stock upppers which will work with our offset cross shaft. I have all the plots on how certain control arms with or without our spindle will affect the geometry so if you want to run them anyways or already have them I can let you know which setup will work the best. Also that pricing is not set in stone just a ballpark for those that wanted an idea. It will most likely come down from there.

Shane

[next69]

Quick question....

It apears that the AFX spindle is a great looking cost effective solution that will adress some performance issues that we fight with our early Camaros, my question is Tyler reccomends original control arms with the tall spindles, or the short spindle with the G-mod. Of course the lower control tubular arms only improve caster, would this added caster be beneficial or not worth the cost? Also, would there be any benefit of running a AFX spindle with tubular upper arms? I am just curious because I am getting ready to start building my front suspension and would like to know what is the best performance option on the street, tall spindle and new bushings, new upper and lower arms with bushings, or some combination of both?

[Marty G Cars]

Ok, this sounds like a great option for my new 68 RS/SS. I had planned on doing the GW Delalum bushings for the stock upper and lower control arms. So if I read you right, all I need to do is add your spindles and get some QA1 coilovers and I'm set. When can I order?

[Rick Dorion]

I like the idea of the new shafts to eliminate/minimize the shim stack. I currently have stock UCA's with GW bushings and the offset shaft. However, I have about 1" of shims.

Can you tease us with future offerings and timeframes?

[69boo307]

wow, sweet! I'm currently running modified 2nd gen f-body spindles with 'homemade' hubs on my chevelle with the C5 brake setup. This looks like it would be a much nicer solution to achieve the same result, with better bumpsteer properties.

Now if someone would give me some money...

[rohrt]

HAHA Jody

We have measured the camber/caster curves and pivot points for Stock, Gulstrand, DSE, GW, and Speetech arms and we know how our geometry stacks up.

Shane

This is data I would like to see!

[chicane67]

This is data I would like to see!

Of course you would...... so does everyone else. My suggestion would be that everyone go out and purchase the required tools and find the answers for yourselves. It would be a great learning experience for all who do........

There has to be a point in which we draw-the-line and take note that some information is proprietary, not only to ourselves, but to the other manufacturers as well. Although I have been given explicit permission from all involved manufacturers (except for one of them eh! and Ill let you guess who that was) there was some spoken hesitance in the idea of actually publishing the numbers from other manufacturers...... other than our own numbers from our own products.

Very soon, there will be A-B comparisons of the products involved from an instrumented chassis and at that point, I believe we will be in a better position to provide emperical data and show what can be accomplished with each set up.

Our squirrely counterpart, Shane, will be providing some graphical representations of the geometries on the table for discussion. We surely dont do the 'smoke and mirrors' thing and want to provide as much information to the consumer as we can...... but, we will do so with the best interests and mutual respect for ourselves and for the other manufacturers that this involves.

That's if you all can wait....... for the proof is in the pudding....... as long as it wasnt from SEMA 2004

[baz67]

As the one who had done most of the data collecting, around 80 hrs, I will back up what chicane has said.

I promise there will not be any talk of donkeys or feelings, just tech.

That's if you all can wait....... for the proof is in the pudding....... as long as it wasnt from SEMA 2004

Wait THAT was pudding!!

[rohrt]

I wish I did have the time and money to buy all the suspension systems out their and test them out, sounds like fun to me, but I don't. I do respect the fact that you guys have done your homework in the testing department. I am curious what is the fear is regaurding the sharing of your knowlege. From a consumer stand point (me) it looks like someone has somthing to hide when hard #s are not shared, but I can also see from a sellers stand point you put in all the hard work to get the data you have and don't want it pirated. I would also imagine there would be some liability in publishing #s of another manufactures equipement. Then there is the fact, at least for my self, would I know how to read the data that I'm looking at. Ride hight and spring tension would also play a roll in the function i'm sure. Its my understanding that the only diffrence in the arms is caster and If thats the case why would that be a threat? It is also my understanding that the most needed improvement in the 1st gen f-body is neg camber and that there is only a few options that I know of to get it. The G-mod, spindle spacers, your spindles and few expensive system out their like GWs.
Like any consumer I like to weigh out all the varibles looking at the bang for the buck ratio and make a desicion. Some people just want function others want a cool look.
What do you think would happen if you did share the info? Would everyone flock to one system? Would it take someones arms/system out of the running?

I do want say I pulled out my PHR mag last night to look at the add. Those spindles are awsome. Are the hubs exactly the same as the C6 corvette? Just want to know if they could be found used on ebay or some other parts swap site.

[nancejd]

I think what this hobby needs is a "Consumer Reports" type of magazine. Head to head testing, no advertising, just like the regular magazine. Just think, if for say, $20 a year, you could get real world info on a variety of parts before you plunked down your hard earned cash, wouldn't that be worth something to you?

[chicane67]

What do you think would happen if you did share the info? Would everyone flock to one system? Would it take someones arms/system out of the running? Are the hubs exactly the same as the C6 corvette? Just want to know if they could be found used on ebay or some other parts swap site.

We can share what we have when we can.... as for the others, we have chosen not to share that information for many reasons. One, is a question of repeatability. Two, is a cause for liability and three is just strait up respect for the ones who did the work. But no matter what, I will still use Global West and DSE products to suit my clients needs and requirements.

Would everyone flock to one system ?? I doubt that. I myself have the opinion that each manufacturer and their related components can be best used for specific builds. For example, a while back there was discussion of spring rate to camber gain (resistance in measured travel) where I feel one control arm would be better suited for a peticular spring rate range. Post that is the culmination of all of the information we have been collecting for about a year now..... and that is how we came to the basic idea of our spindle..... but with options no other company can provide. I can sum it up with one statement:

You can use the ATS spindle with ANY COMPANIES control arms.... (but you dont need to use any of them either.)

That is real product flexability for those whom have already modified their chassis to those whom have not. Not to mention, covering three chassis overall.

You will however have some set ups that are better for street driving and then the sky is the limit on the racing end. Not to mention that there are other ATS products that are on the horizon that can and will utilized the wheel speed sensors...... things like 4 wheel independant ABS and traction control for starters. There are going to be more brake packages available for this spindle that I care to even think about too.

Super strong, light, modular, versitile and designed to WORK. Plain and simple.

As for the bearings, yes they are REAL Delphi Corvette wheel bearings..... that are slightly modified. You will have to enquire about that with Tyler on a one-on-basis. That is information he can provide. But I doubt you will find any quality from an E-bay purchase considering wheel bearings. This is one component you CAN NOT skimp on.... there is too much liability envolved and it has more to do with your saftey than anythng else.

James- I am right there with you on what you state..... and I am doing just that. That is exactly why I am instrumenting my 67 with enough data acquisition (40 plus channels) just to go out and run different set-ups and have emperical data to support any findings. I dont do advertising, I dont really do anything with sales..... I am just here for the hard core tech and providing myself, you and everyone else with enough information to make sound choices and decisions so that you can build your car the way YOU want. I just want to be able to stand behind any product that I use and have the information and tech to back it up.

So just make your checks out to chicane67....

[130fe]

I was just in Vegas last week and stopped by the ATS shop. Tyler and Shane were great to meet. I saw one of the prototype spindles and I really liked it. I am in the middle of gathering parts for my new stock subframe for my 68. Tyler, the Spearmint Rhino was VERY nice!! Will be call you guys shortly about getting a set of the new spindles.

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks, Tom, Tyler, Brian, Shane, et al.

I like the ATS spindle for providing a platform for future evolvement. The idea of ABS in the future is great as I don't get enough thresh-hold braking practice to fully exploit my hydroboost in case of a future potential 'situation'!

[SatisTraction]

how does the weight of the new spinde and hub compare to a factory spindle and hub? I know the add says 2.9 pounds for the spindle but i am talking complete unit compared to complete unit.
Thanks
Chris


BTW, nice looking piece!!!!

[67Sally]

........Very soon, there will be A-B comparisons of the products involved from an instrumented chassis and at that point.........

and

........That is exactly why I am instrumenting my 67 with enough data acquisition (40 plus channels) just to go out and run different set-ups and have emperical data to support any findings.........

hummm. You must have been at your day job when I was last at ATS. I cudda swore that I saw said 67 masquerading as a storage cabinet
W.