Tattoos

[Twentyover]

Daren-

My last employer flew me out from CA to Detroit, rented me a car, and put me up in a hotel 2 nights for the interview. You can bet the interview lasted more than 20 minutes. The employer before that flew me from Oregon to CA early on a Saturday morning and I spent the next 4 hours talking to the guys I'd report to. They also asked peers to come in for a little face time.

I'm no hot dog management type, just an old fart engineer who chose a technical career path rather than management.

Remember that interviews aren't advesarial- if you bagged the interview, you pretty much have already demonstrated technical capabilities. The question is how do you fit in the existing or proposed team. Chemistry is pretty significant, attitude moreso.

[gsxrken]

Get whatever tattoo you want, wherever you want. It won't be the thing holding you back.

[showa]

The voices told me to get my Ink...... and piercings ......

[showa]

They also made me buy that tie with a big skull on it.....

[showa]

But on the job, depending what my duty is that day, I may not be showing any tats, piercings or even that skull tie....

Other days it is all cool... but I still have a modecum of professionalism to present....

[Daren]

Daren-

My last employer flew me out from CA to Detroit, rented me a car, and put me up in a hotel 2 nights for the interview. You can bet the interview lasted more than 20 minutes. The employer before that flew me from Oregon to CA early on a Saturday morning and I spent the next 4 hours talking to the guys I'd report to. They also asked peers to come in for a little face time.

I'm no hot dog management type, just an old fart engineer who chose a technical career path rather than management.

Remember that interviews aren't advesarial- if you bagged the interview, you pretty much have already demonstrated technical capabilities. The question is how do you fit in the existing or proposed team. Chemistry is pretty significant, attitude moreso.

Thank you sir. How the heck did you ever survive engineering school? You older guys have nothing but my admiration!!! When the time comes I'll throw my self out on the job market and roll with the punches.

[DarkBuddha]

I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to offer my perspective on the original question. To be clear, I have no tattoos, mainly because I don't feel a need and don't know what I'd get anyway (probably a bit of fear of regret in there too). Anyway...

I personally have no issue with tattoos showing with folks I work with (either as a customer or associate or boss). But then again, I often make a connection with those people, both from the perspective of culture and from the perspective of being judged. I've spent my whole life being big and/or fat, and I've never exactly had a 100% conventional appearance (whether hair or clothing). The world is both judgmental and prejudiced, and I've experienced it first hand, and I understand that it's not always accurate.

That said, I'm not surprised when others ("normal folks") do have hesitation working with folks with tattoos. We all know that tattoos have stereotypical associations based on historical and cultural examples. The problem is that those stereotypes are not completely inaccurate all of the time. Gang members, convicts, bikers (the non-law abiding type), etc. still wear tattoos and still do bad stuff. Why would any reasonable person want to possibly risk unnecessary interaction with someone that might possibly have bad or dangerous intentions or lifestyle? Seems reasonable to want to avoid such folks.

So what to do... if you're tattooed, don't be surprised or affronted when there are folks that don't wanna deal/work with you. Instead, reconcile yourself to accepting business/work from folks who aren't judgmental or are empathetic to how you present yourself, your work, or your business. It may be a small group, but they aren't isolated. If you demonstrate good work and talent, or whatever, you can hope they'll pass the word on and broaden your appeal to the larger pool of potential customers.

But whatever you do, don't blame others for not sharing your views on tattoos or how they view those with tattoos. Instead, show them and change them.

[Twentyover]

Thank you sir. How the heck did you ever survive engineering school? You older guys have nothing but my admiration!!! When the time comes I'll throw my self out on the job market and roll with the punches.

The awesome power of the Texas Instruments SR-50 hand held calculator.

Previous posters have pointed out- do your research on the potential employer- know what they do, where they're headed, how they judge success- you know, the stuff that all the books tell you to do.

[WS6]

I didn't have time to read this entire post, just the original post. I got a tattoo on my calf because I'll always been in pants at work from now until I no longer work for a company. I like sleeve tattoos but didn't want to wear long sleeves for the rest of my life. Granted I'm in the oil industry so tattoos aren't uncommon but you'll rarely find a visible tattoo on anyone in management. Tattoos don't bother me depending on their content but I didn't want to be held back because of my preferences as compared to my employer's.

On a side note I'm still considering getting my entire lower leg done. I just can't decide on a design etc. This is definitely something that would be harder to over look than a single tattoo not because of content but because of coverage/size.

[SLO_Z28]

Previous posters have pointed out- do your research on the potential employer- know what they do, where they're headed, how they judge success- you know, the stuff that all the books tell you to do.

^This.

Sometimes simple appearance changes can make a big difference. I currently work for a law enforcement agency where they have very strict grooming and appearance standards, before I interviewed I shaved my beard off because I knew it was at odds with the agency's culture. You also want to dress one step above the job you're interviewing for, in my case it was a automotive technician position so I wore a nice dress shirt and a nice tie, if I were interviewing for a officer position I would wear a tailored suit and tie. Granted there are officers with full "sleeves" but its generally not accepted in that culture, and I can remember on several occasions the previous commander would go out of his way to give the officer crap about it. I know that would have been an uphill battle for him to get hired. Wearing long sleeve shirts in the summer heat would be motivation enough for me to not want to

My dad always had a good way of putting it "If you want to make a million bucks you have to look like a million bucks".

[Mathius]

I get the feeling we could have this conversation over a beer and at the end we'd both be smiling

Yes, I think we'd probably have a great time.

and I'd probably pat you on the back of the shoulder and say something stupid like, good luck changing the world, but in the mean time keep your tattoos under the collar.

There is where I have a mental disconnect with this entire thread. I'm not trying to change anything. I don't have the energy for such a futile endeavor. I'm not heated, I'm not upset, etc. Over the last couple of days the few times I've popped in here I've been more annoyed at not being able to get my microtorch lit for a project I'm working on than anything that's going on in this thread. I don't know these people personally, so why would I waste the energy? I don't know where people are getting the perception that I'm upset just because I'm persistent in my viewpoint? Again, maybe some of the supposed "buzz words". I dunno. I am agitated with the particular moderators who seem to consistently enter my threads and deliberately try to provoke me, but that is an ongoing issue.

When I say I think people should be able to present themselves however they want and not be judged by it (assuming they are clean, etc.) and the other viewpoint says people should adhere to an unwritten dress code accepted by society, I can't for the life of me understand how I'm the close minded one? My viewpoint allows you to continue to wear a suit and tie if that's what you feel, while theirs restricts you to that attire.

I think there are several people in this thread who don't pay attention to words that make up comparisons and analogy's. If I use an analogy about racism, that doesn't mean I'm calling you a racist. I could be wrong, but I don't think I've called anyone any names in this thread at any point.

And 8 hour job interviews and flying someone across the country for an interview process? I mean these are just not things that happen to normal working class americans. Why do I use the word "normal" ? Because we make up the majority of the country. We don't come home from work and work out/exercise because we're already beat from the touch physical day we had. Most of us don't sit behind a desk all day, and for the most part we don't care about politics because we know that we don't have enough money for the politicians to give a damn about our opinion and it doesn't matter anyways, because no matter what the politicians and government do, we have to survive anyhow. This is where we live and where we'll stay and we deal with what comes. And we sure as hell don't look down upon people who work at McDonalds. I've never worked fast food, but it's a job like anything else. And yeah, maybe the guy behind the counter is not as smart as me or some other people or maybe he just made poor career choices, or maybe god forbid, he's happy where he works! But the bottom line is, he's a person, just like me. I guess I should have expected this though and it was naive on my part. When someone has an extra $50k-100k to throw down on a car for a hobby even if its over a period of years, you can't really expect them to be properly grounded I don't think.

What do I know.

Mathius

[Mathius]

I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to offer my perspective on the original question. To be clear, I have no tattoos, mainly because I don't feel a need and don't know what I'd get anyway (probably a bit of fear of regret in there too). Anyway...

I personally have no issue with tattoos showing with folks I work with (either as a customer or associate or boss). But then again, I often make a connection with those people, both from the perspective of culture and from the perspective of being judged. I've spent my whole life being big and/or fat, and I've never exactly had a 100% conventional appearance (whether hair or clothing). The world is both judgmental and prejudiced, and I've experienced it first hand, and I understand that it's not always accurate.

I thought this was one of the most thoughtful and emphatic parts of this entire thread.

That said, I'm not surprised when others ("normal folks") do have hesitation working with folks with tattoos. We all know that tattoos have stereotypical associations based on historical and cultural examples. The problem is that those stereotypes are not completely inaccurate all of the time. Gang members, convicts, bikers (the non-law abiding type), etc. still wear tattoos and still do bad stuff. Why would any reasonable person want to possibly risk unnecessary interaction with someone that might possibly have bad or dangerous intentions or lifestyle? Seems reasonable to want to avoid such folks.

And again, I still think this has a lot to do with the fact of what you're saying, that people who aren't involved in this type of lifestyle or activities stray away from tattoos for fear of being categorized, which allows this stereotype to exist.

So what to do... if you're tattooed, don't be surprised or affronted when there are folks that don't wanna deal/work with you. Instead, reconcile yourself to accepting business/work from folks who aren't judgmental or are empathetic to how you present yourself, your work, or your business. It may be a small group, but they aren't isolated. If you demonstrate good work and talent, or whatever, you can hope they'll pass the word on and broaden your appeal to the larger pool of potential customers.

Which is the appeal of getting them. Not to prove anything, or to take a stand, or whatever, but because I know that I'm doing it for me and just living my life, and I'll know that the people who help or befriend me along the way are genuine. Even if they don't like me and they're being two faced, I'll know it's because their wary of my genuine talents and abilities because otherwise they'd probably just look down on me like most of the people in this thread seem to advocate.

But whatever you do, don't blame others for not sharing your views on tattoos or how they view those with tattoos. Instead, show them and change them.

I don't understand this statement. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm not upset. I think I mentioned several times that I can't get upset because I asked for opinions. I've actually ignored a bunch of comments that I thought would do nothing more than provoke an argument instead of responding to them like I could have. I don't know what else to say on the matter.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

When someone has an extra $50k-100k to throw down on a car for a hobby even if its over a period of years, you can't really expect them to be properly grounded I don't think.

This is where you lose us. "Properly grounded", indeed. You're hanging out on a car site where the majority of people put enough emphasis on their cars to spend thousands of dollars on them, and you are saying we're not "properly grounded".

You decry the fact that others judge by appearances, and here you are judging us by how we spend our money. There's a word for that. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

[Mathius]

This is where you lose us. "Properly grounded", indeed. You're hanging out on a car site where the majority of people put enough emphasis on their cars to spend thousands of dollars on them, and you are saying we're not "properly grounded".

You decry the fact that others judge by appearances, and here you are judging us by how we spend our money. There's a word for that. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

I'm not judging anyone, I'm just putting things into perspective. I don't expect someone who puts $50k-$100k into their car to know how someone like me who's serving an apprenticeship and lives in a 1 bedroom apartment by himself goes about his daily life anymore than I know how someone who can afford to drop $10k-$20k on a project car lives their lives.

That's been the general point of this whole discussion, a point that you continually miss month after month is that YOU CAN'T ASSUME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES.

John I honestly wish you'd just leave me the F alone unless you're moderating the thread. All you have done over the last year and half is jump in these threads and antagonize. You continually turn these things into a personalized pissing match where you attempt to make everyone in the thread think I'm some kind of idiot and it's getting real OLD. Just ignore me and don't respond to my threads. You'd be doing us both a favor.

Mathius

[DoABarrelRoll]

...What do you guys think as far as the American public's view on tattoos in a regular work setting? Have we progressed as a nation enough to wear they don't have to be hidden anymore? Obviously tattoos or any body modifications to the face still give a lot of people the vibe that you're a freak of some kind, and I'm not talking so much about the face, but what about say an arm sleeve or something on the hand?

What is your guys take on this?

Mathius

I got my first (and currently only) tattoo about a year after I joined the Navy. A (then) very close friend of mine didn't know I had one for the first 3 years I knew him. It is on my right deltoid, and my uniform (that I don't have to wear anymore) covered it.

In the US military, for the most part, no one cares. There has been a rash of stupid rules in the past few years, but those are created by the military politicians interested in PR and their political careers.

If you are working in a tight-assed conservative setting, they care. For some reason a tattoo threatens their fragile sensibilities. The same reason a gentlemanly beard is also shied away from.

People are stupid.

[Twentyover]

Get real, Mathius

You talk about flying in for an interview and multi-hour interviews as not being normal. True enough, if you want to stay blue collar and swing a hammer until the arthritis puts you into retirement, greet your customer with "Welcome to Walmart", or answer your customer with "Do you want fries with that?" I, and a good number of others am telling you they are normal for jobs like engineer or architect. We may have just a little bit more experience in careers considered "professional"

You are judging us, from your perspective. And what makes that perspective correct? I started out in a one bedroom apartment when I first got out of school, busted my nuts to pay off the student loan. A couple years later I bought a run-down house on the dingy side of town. I've lived paycheck to paycheck. I don't anymore.

Not normal? The hell I'm not normal. Just because It's not your experience doesn't make it not normal.

You asked if tats were ok in a regular work setting. It's been answered, if by 'regular' you mean occupations that are salary vs hourly or customer/management interface. I suppose something like an oceanographer may be able to get away with it, at least until they tried to get a study funded. Is it right? I'll say no,but that's the way it is.

You say "YOU CAN'T ASSUME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES." Sure I can. We all do. It's part of the way we're wired

[Damn True]

I've been very patient with this thread and I have overlooked a number of very disrespectful and insulting comments. I'm done with that.

When I say I think people should be able to present themselves however they want and not be judged by it (assuming they are clean, etc.) and the other viewpoint says people should adhere to an unwritten dress code accepted by society, I can't for the life of me understand how I'm the close minded one? My viewpoint allows you to continue to wear a suit and tie if that's what you feel, while theirs restricts you to that attire.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Like it or not there are cultural norms, professional environmental norms and there are carefully crafted corporate cultures and brand images. It is not your place to opine on the corporate culture of an organization you seek to join, it is up to you to assimilate to that culture or find another place to work. You are not going to walk in the door and influence a corporation to discard their carefully crafted culture/brand as an applicant for an entry level position.

You just don't matter that much.

There's a dozen other equally qualified entry level applicants standing in line behind you with a measure of respect for the organization they seek to join. One of them will get the job.

And 8 hour job interviews and flying someone across the country for an interview process? I mean these are just not things that happen to normal working class americans. Why do I use the word "normal" ? Because we make up the majority of the country. We don't come home from work and work out/exercise because we're already beat from the touch physical day we had. Most of us don't sit behind a desk all day, and for the most part we don't care about politics because we know that we don't have enough money for the politicians to give a damn about our opinion and it doesn't matter anyways, because no matter what the politicians and government do, we have to survive anyhow. This is where we live and where we'll stay and we deal with what comes. And we sure as hell don't look down upon people who work at McDonalds. I've never worked fast food, but it's a job like anything else. And yeah, maybe the guy behind the counter is not as smart as me or some other people or maybe he just made poor career choices, or maybe god forbid, he's happy where he works! But the bottom line is, he's a person, just like me. I guess I should have expected this though and it was naive on my part. When someone has an extra $50k-100k to throw down on a car for a hobby even if its over a period of years, you can't really expect them to be properly grounded I don't think.

What do I know.

Mathius

Excellent question in that last line and an all too rare moment of clarity and introspection. Let's examine it for a second...

What do you know...about what is normal for the application and interview process for a professional position. Nothing.

What do you know...about the standards of conduct and appearance, the corporate cultures or brand identities of an engineering centric firm or the field of architecture? Nothing.

What do you know...about where the the respondents to this thread come from and how they got to where they are? Nothing.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Yet you don't hesitate for a second while sitting at your keyboard to insult, demean and disrespect those who do have a wealth of experience in these areas who have taken their time to educate you because we have a shared affinity for cars. Then you go ahead and impugn them further by implying that by spending their well earned money on a car they are somehow less "grounded" than yourself.

You've got a lot of nerve.

Where do you get off asking people about their experience and then impugning them as overly judgmental, unfair or closed minded when their experience does not agree with your uneducated opinion on how the professional world ought to be?

Where do you get off assuming the people who have responded to this thread don't have an appreciation for, if not experience in what you consider "normal" employ?

Where do you get off pontificating to the respondents to this thread on "what it's like down here with the rest of us"? What makes you think we don't know EXACTLY what that is?

Where do you get off telling the respondents to this thread that they don't work? From what experience do you make the assertion that their jobs aren't hard? That earning your way through school, through entry level positions, and to a position of enough relative experience that one would be justified in taking the time to educate another that their path isn't hard?

Where do you get off impugning the respondents to this thread as somehow less "grounded" than yourself? When it is you who clearly lack a firm footing in what is "normal" in the world you seek to join.

The overwhelming majority of respondents to this thread come from means not dissimilar to your own. We've had, as you describe, "normal" jobs. We've earned our way to positions where we have enough experience to share with someone such as yourself who seeks to follow a similar path. Where do you get off crapping all over them, their experience and the very professional environments that you claim to wish to pursue?

8hr interviews and flying cross-country for interviews ARE normal in the fields you seek to enter. As are a number of things that you've demonstrated being fundamentally challenged by. This keeps coming around:

YOU CAN'T ASSUME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES.

Here's where you are wrong, time and time again. That is the precise goal of an interview. If your resume/CV got to my desk I know you have the basic skills for the job or you would never have been asked to come in. The interview exists to determine if you will get along with my team. If you demonstrate a fundamental disregard for the corporate culture/brand image, who we are, what we do and what we stand for; I know exactly what you think and how you live your life and I know that you aren't going to fit in with the team. Don't throw out your tool belt because you won't be getting an offer letter and I'll be having my admin call in the next candidate.

That aside, you seem to have a hard time dealing with being told that you are wrong. It happens quite a lot. You need to work on that.

In any of the environments you seek to pursue it will happen early and often because you will be wrong. As an entry level employee with a degree in engineering or architecture you will have the absolute bare minimum of knowledge of the field. You won't know crap about crap and it will be up to you to absorb the shared knowledge of your peers and superiors who know more about the subject by virtue of their experience than you do.

You've demonstrated here that you aren't yet very good at dealing with such a scenario.

Regard the aforementioned in future dealings on this site and think about how they might translate to your future professional endeavors. If you spout utterly ignorant BS with no basis in experience or fact you will be called out on it. You can accept that and learn from it or you can move on.

Yes, there is a double meaning to that paragraph.

As Ken previously alluded:

Get whatever tattoo you want, wherever you want. It won't be the thing holding you back.

He makes an excellent point.

I shared a link to this thread with an acquaintance who is an architect. In fact he runs a firm. His comments follow. I suggest you regard them with at least as much thoughtful consideration as he demonstrated in taking the time to respond to your uneducated question.

In other words; He knows what he's talking about. You don't. Listen and learn.

I read through that thread, Damn you are spot on. And yes Architecture is a conservative industry. I would be very reluctant to hire a tattooed up architecture grad for production work let alone to meet one of my hard earned clients. People that want to decorate themselves outside of the standard often seemed shocked that the standard does not accept them without prejudice.

What is irritating to me, and the internet is full of examples, is when someone posts a solicitation for opinions and then craps up the thread arguing with any opinion that does not agree with their point of view. From that small sample of the poll taker I would say he has about zero chance of getting accepted to and then through an accredited architecture program. In architecture you need a thick skin and the ability to see a problem from multiple vantage points. You are asked to solve a creative problem that may have multiple good answers, present your solutions and accept criticism in the spirit it was given. One person will look at what you did and say it is beautiful and another will be on the opposite end. You are not going to change someone's mind on what beauty is by telling them that they are wrong.

If he does manage to get into a program and graduate by the end he will realize that the truth is not what he wants it to be.

[454bug]

I could be wrong, but I don't think I've called anyone any names in this thread at any point.

I've heard several people in this thread contribute that you have to be prepared to do business with people who have more conservative attitudes, but IMHO, those are the people who are in the wrong.

The fact that you would look at a person with visible tattoos or read a thread I wrote here on a board, and automatically form an opinion and bias as you put it against them is arrogant and illogical to the extreme. It's also judgmental.

When someone has an extra $50k-100k to throw down on a car for a hobby even if its over a period of years, you can't really expect them to be properly grounded I don't think.

You are wrong... In your 'round about way, you have "labeled" the respondents of this thread a few different "names" or "categories" of people. Just because a number of us may have more disposable income to spend on our cars than you do right now, does that make us not "properly grounded"?? Many people have hobbies they spend their disposable income on. A number of these hobbies are expensive. Our's just happen to be cars. Others may spend their money on golf or bass fishing. The cost of Country Clubs and Bass boats add up real fast as well...

I would wager the majority of the guys on this site started their lives without a silver spoon in their mouth. They worked hard all their life and a number of them have either climbed the corporate ladder or became owners of their businesses. I'm sure most of us have lived in a one-bedroom apartment or had a number of roommates to afford the rent... I, personally, lived in a 15' x 19' warehouse office (including the bathroom in that space!) for 3 years after a divorce and while spending all my money getting my business off the ground. You proceed to describe yourself as the poor workin' stiff that lives from payday to payday... Like you're carrying the torch for all the "normal" people... Do you actually think we all weren't the "normal" people for a large portion of our lives?? Just because we have escalated our livelihoods through hard work and perseverance, why would you try to charaterize that as a flaw with improper judgement toward the "normal" guy?? What makes you think that having an upper-level position with a corporation is not HARD work?? I routinely work 60-70 hours per week in my cush corporate job... with no chance for overtime pay... You do what you have to do to get the job done... There are plenty of guys working "normal" jobs that wouldn't think of working one minute of overtime without being compensated for it...

You have strayed SO far from your original question and have spent the majority of your comments on why you are correct in your line of thinking and the rest of us are wrong by answering your original question. In reading your rants, it makes me wonder why you are even attempting to go to school... Why in the world would you ever aspire to improve your place in life so you could be a like others here with larger incomes and desk jobs and not be "properly grounded"?? If that is what you think of the corporate world, maybe you shouldn't aspire to be an Architect or an Engineer...

I would suggest if you can't HEAR what everyone is telling you about the level of professionalism necessary to work the type jobs you are contemplating going into, maybe you should continue to carry the torch for the "normal" guy and abandon your proposed career path. That way, you would be free to dress anyway you liked and place tattoos on any portion of your body you seemed fit (face, arms, legs, knuckles, etc.). For good measure, put big holes in your ears drooping to your shoulders, a bull ring in your nose, and bolts in your eye lids. If you're going to express yourself, don't hold back... get after it!

In addition, if you can't see how or why anyone in their right mind would actually spend the kind of money we spend on our cars, maybe you should just spend your time on another type of website... just a suggestion...

[454bug]

My sister has her nose pierced, as did my ex girlfriend. I have my ear pierced in 3 places. I have female friend's with eyebrow piercings and one who even has a metal stud surgically implanted in the back of her neck somehow that allows her to screw an earing into it. I interact with these people on a fairly regular basis, I get along with them, and I have no issues with them. But I can understand why others would be repulsed by it, because excess or simply a bad choice can certainly hurt your appearance. And lets be honest, tattoos aside, that's what our society cares about more than anything is outer beauty.

First off, you slam everyone for not agreeing with you about the ability to wear tattoos anywhere you want to and be accepted in the corporate world. In the next breath, you admit that your friend's excessive piercings are over the top...

It's amazing how you have no problem drawing the line at what should be acceptable and what's not.. but the rest of us can't give you a more realistic "line" of what's appropriate in the corporate world.

Can't you see the irony in that???

[shmoov69]

I'm not judging anyone, I'm just putting things into perspective. I don't expect someone who puts $50k-$100k into their car to know how someone like me who's serving an apprenticeship and lives in a 1 bedroom apartment by himself goes about his daily life anymore than I know how someone who can afford to drop $10k-$20k on a project car lives their lives.

That's been the general point of this whole discussion, a point that you continually miss month after month is that YOU CAN'T ASSUME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES.

John I honestly wish you'd just leave me the F alone unless you're moderating the thread. All you have done over the last year and half is jump in these threads and antagonize. You continually turn these things into a personalized pissing match where you attempt to make everyone in the thread think I'm some kind of idiot and it's getting real OLD. Just ignore me and don't respond to my threads. You'd be doing us both a favor.

Mathius

Dude, on the first paragraph I must say to get real! I know that most of the people on this site are "working stiffs". There are some big money people also, but they are not the "norm". I am a freaking roofer, and have been for 20 years! Think that is a glamourous Cush job?!?! 50-60 hours a week average....BEFORE I got to management...now it is 60-70 hours a week! How much more "grounded" do I need to be to fit in your "image"?!? GET THE CHIP OFF YOUR SHOULDER!

second paragraph. You are right, you can't assume what people are thinking or how they live their lives....you get that?!? YOU can't assume!! Quit being a hypocrite because you have been doing it the whole thread! GET THE CHIP OFF YOUR SHOULDER!

third paragraph. I have seen several posts that I remember and you just like to argue (you're not the only one tho!). But it is their sandbox, not yours (or mine!) and if you (or I) don't like the way they play, then take your toys to another sandbox and play. But it will be the same in that sandbox until YOU GET THE CHIP OFF YOUR SHOULDER!!!