Watts link for first gen camaros

[LV42DAY]

so i recently bought a four bar/link kit for my 68 camaro convertible. the kit came with a panhard bar, which a lot of people swear by but i have been doing a lot of research on the watts link and am now dead set on getting one.

there is not a lot of aftermarket support for the watts link as far as i can tell so despite searching for the last few weeks, when time aloud me, i did not find too much for the first gen camaro. they seem to be big in the mini truck industry primarily due to the insane amount of suspension travel those guys use on their trucks.

the only direct bolt on kit that found is the fays2 kit for $650+shipping, found here: http://fays2.net/fays2_watts_link_15_.html

it does look like a solid kit and resembles the older lateral dynamics three link watts link that are found on some of the other high end PT camaros on this site. unfortunately, this is the only one i could find that is specifically for a first gen camaro.

other kits that could easily be modified to work:

KP Components:
Rear gear cover mounted $369:
http://www.kplinks.com/product.php?p...&cat=79&page=1

Dallas hotrods has three different style:
rear gear cover mounted $250:
http://dallashotrodparts.com/wattsrearcovermount.html
axle mounted $229 (thinking about getting this one):
http://dallashotrodparts.com/wattsminitruckhdheim.html
chassis mounted $299:
http://dallashotrodparts.com/chassiswattsrg.html


now i've done a lot of reading regarding the watts link location. i've seen some people say that the axle mount is the way to go due to better articulation of the rear end in comparison to the chassis mount and vise versa.

anyone want to chime in and potentially clear up what really works and what works best.

please keep this thread factual.

here is a good thread with good information despite the cat fighting that was going on during the debate:
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/su...new-watts.html

site showing how the watts link works for anyone who might not know or wants to learn more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt%27s_linkage

[CamaroAJ]

i have an early LD 3 link and it uses a fays2 bell crank. i think there is a reason that LD and fays2 doesn't axle mount the bell crank.

[Vicinity]

Gonna tag this, I'm interested. I've been looking at the Fays2 link, don't really understand it, does it utilize the leafs?

[Gitter Dun]

Yes you can use them with leafs.

I have a Fays2/leafs in my car but haven't had a chance to put it to the test yet. Completed install about 2 weeks ago. I have been making suspension changes to my car and documenting results after each change by comparing lap times. I've been told that you can get into the throttle sooner coming out of a corner but we will see.

[Vicinity]

Yes you can use them with leafs.

I have a Fays2/leafs in my car but haven't had a chance to put it to the test yet. Completed install about 2 weeks ago. I have been making suspension changes to my car and documenting results after each change by comparing lap times. I've been told that you can get into the throttle sooner coming out of a corner but we will see.

So it does nothing to affect ride quality, just allows better traction in curves? I'm wondering how different it and a 3 link (like the LD posted above) would really be.

[zamora7]

So it does nothing to affect ride quality, just allows better traction in curves? I'm wondering how different it and a 3 link (like the LD posted above) would really be.

The watts link and a panhard bar is used to keep your rear end center with the car. The watts is actually better since the rear end stays centered at all times compared to a panhard bar which in hard cornering can still shift the rear end/car to one side. In other words, if your tires are sticky enough the rear end will stay put and the body shifts towards outside of the turn and your tires will rub, like my 4th gen T/A. Also, if you lower a car with a panhard, you'll need an adjustable one to re-center the rear end or you will need tires real quick.

[Gitter Dun]

So it does nothing to affect ride quality, just allows better traction in curves? I'm wondering how different it and a 3 link (like the LD posted above) would really be.

I haven't noticed any difference in ride quality. The main reason for the watts link is to keep the differential centered under the car. Before my last track day I lowered the rear of the car another 1 1/2". After a few sessions on the track I noticed that my tires were rubbing my quarter panels and my tail pipes which meant that in hard cornering the differential was shifting close to 1" from side to side. The watts link should keep this from happening. I will post some pics tommorrow night.

[zamora7]

This from Sam Strano on ls1tech.

This was asked elsewhere, about the rod-ends vs. bushings. At this time, it's rod-end only. This isn't a toy piece and is meant for the best axle to body location. Adding deflection via bushings compromises this, and again, good rod-ends (in this case Aurora or FK, neither of which are junk) aren't noisy like cheap ones.

As for handling. Yes, it's meant for handling improvements. It helps the way the rear acts. With a PHB, which is effective and much better than say a G-body or Mustang 4-link, the roll centers move around depending on which way you are turning. It lowers when you turn left, raises when you turn right. This happens because the PHB is bolted to the axle and the body, but the relationship changes between both in opposite ways as the car moves in different directions. Do you need to autox for this to happen to you? Nope. And FWIW, there have been stock cars Watts Links on them. Even way back in 1978-1985... The Mazda RX7 had a Watts as OEM equipment 30 years ago. But they cost more, which is why you don't see them more (and the fact there are few solid axle cars anymore).

This is a supsension location, and geometry part. It's an improvement from a PHB. It costs more to be sure, but if you can swing it, and find your car acts differently in lefts than in rights and or rubs tires on one side more than the other a Watts can help you out a lot. It won't be for everyone, and in all honesty, I'm not sure what the issue you are having is... but I see Bilstein HD in your sig, and they aren't what they used to be, primarily in the rear. Shocks and springs and all that still matter, and a Watts can't fix a problem that is related to springing or damping.

[killer69]

The watts link and a panhard bar is used to keep your rear end center with the car. The watts is actually better since the rear end stays centered at all times compared to a panhard bar which in hard cornering can still shift the rear end/car to one side. In other words, if your tires are sticky enough the rear end will stay put and the body shifts towards outside of the turn and your tires will rub, like my 4th gen T/A. Also, if you lower a car with a panhard, you'll need an adjustable one to re-center the rear end or you will need tires real quick.

just woudering how much side to side movement you think there is with a panhard bar? if you are running a 32" long bar that is level at ride height, and you have 3-4" of total suspension travel, how much do you think the rear end is gong to shift 1/4" maybe.
all i have read says if you don't chassis mount the pivot then the entire system is useless.to be perfect the bars should be set level and parellel. then there is the exhaust. yes the roll center is adjustale, so is an adjustable panhard bar
if you are using a panhard bar it better be adjustable. if it has heim joints it will not deflect. and your tires will not rub unless you only have an 1/8" clearance???. there is something to be said about simplicity also, there are a couple cars that run a watts link penny and one lap that do well with it, i think you will find more that run a panhard and do well.. DSE Speedtech, Jakes, just to name a couple that come to mind. not to say the watts is no good but why add 20-30 pounds to your car

my .02

[JRouche]

I have a watts link. I had a pan hard bar, it was WAY to short and there was no way to fit a longer bar under the car. Believe me, I looked high and low to figure out how to make a long bar pan hard work to keep it simple. I just dont have the space.

So the watts link setup was a better option because it occupies some dead space that wasnt being used. A lil close to the fuel cell housing, but some simple clearancing solved that.

I use a frame mounted center pivot (a fayes bellcrank). I made the other parts.

As far as handling goes. I couldnt be happier. And this is before I even played with the adjustments to move the RC. Before I put it in the car felt like it was swimming back and forth over road level changes in a turn. Now I make the same turn and its really solid, the suspension is taking the variations and the body doesnt even get upset at all.

And as far as lateral locating (which what it does) it keeps the rear end centered under all conditions. I have 3/4" clearance between my tire side wall and the inner quarter panel and even under some rough road conditions (vertical movement) and some hard turns (body roll) the tire does not touch the inner pannel. The watts link keeps the housing centered during all of the conditions I have seen.

One of these days I will play with the adjustability of the RC height and see what difference it makes. But so far Im really happy.

Now as far as chassis mounted or rear end housing mounted center pivots go. I like the chassis mounted for a couple of reasons. And both are easy to see.

One is unsprung weight. Chassis mounted puts all the weight on the frame which is suspended with the suspension. A rear end mounted unit places alot of the weight on the unsprung rear end housing. Kinda loads up the rear end and makes it slow. You want to keep the housing as light as possible, it makes it a fast reacting suspension. Too much weight on it makes it heavy and slow (it can over come the shocks). You want it to be light and fast so it travels the road. Keeps the tires planted during fast transitions in the road surface. Thats why independent suspensions are so fast, the main center section is chassis mounted, just half the axle weight and wheel/tire weight (and maybe some bar weight for the roll bar).

Next is the traveling RC height. And to be honest, Im not all that sure how much that will play into the actual feel of the car.

I have driven a couple of cars. And it seems I can get used to the way the car handles. Its always a learning curve if I want to drive it fast and be in control. And control seems to be the selling point with a non-changing RC height lateral device such as a chassis mounted center pivot watts link. The rear RC height will always move with the car, its unchanging.

Where a suspension mounted center pivot will move the rear RC as the cars ride height changes during driving.

And really, as small of the change is I dont think its a point. If you have a race car then yeah, maybe you want to control the rear RC to a T for the ultimate predicability with how the car feels.

But for a steet car I really dont think its a selling point.

Suspensions do SO many odd changes during the travel so I think the slight amount of RC height with a rear end mounted pivot wont be as noticeable for the street car as it might be for a race car. It will just be an aspect of the handling of the car that we all get used to.

Here is a pic of my watts link. JR

[Bryce]

I run a watts link in my falcon. I design and built my own with a chassis mounted bell crank.








It is really easy to calculate the lateral translation of a PHB. A 32" PHB level at ride with 2" travel in either direction will move .063, thats 1/16"

If it moves 4" in either direction than you get .251" of lateral translation.

[killer69]

i just had to check, i measured the side to sid movement on our Torque Arm with a 32" panhard bar. 6" of travel 3 up 3 down the axle will move 1/8" of 1 inch or you could just read Bryces post above and get the EXACT measurement to the thousandths of an inch.
our pan hard bar weighs 4.84 lbs that includes the bar the housing mount and the hardware. it also takes 30 seconds to adjust. i am not saying a watts is not better , just not required
Jrouche
that is 10 pounds of suspension in a 5 pound bag lol is it a old prostreet car you ar converting? or are you keeping it a drag car? i can see in your case that a long PHB could be a bitt tricky. is that pic at ride height?

[killer69]

Bryce that is a nice looking peice!!

[Bryce]

Thanks Blake, Since almost every piece of mine is aluminum it only weighs 8.4 lbs.

I calculated it at 3" of travel and its to .141"; close enough to 1/8"; 16 thousands different. HAHA.

[68Formula]

Wow Bryce, it's a shame that'll be hidden under the car!

[LV42DAY]

i just had to check, i measured the side to sid movement on our Torque Arm with a 32" panhard bar. 6" of travel 3 up 3 down the axle will move 1/8" of 1 inch or you could just read Bryces post above and get the EXACT measurement to the thousandths of an inch.
our pan hard bar weighs 4.84 lbs that includes the bar the housing mount and the hardware. it also takes 30 seconds to adjust. i am not saying a watts is not better , just not required

thats what i hear. but then i speak with people with a watts link and they swear they will never go back to a pan hard. apparently that little bit of difference makes all the difference. and after all, every little bit helps.

[LV42DAY]

I run a watts link in my falcon. I design and built my own with a chassis mounted bell crank.

that's beautiful. how much did it cost when it was all said and done? do you have any installed photos of what i looks like?

granted that is pretty thick aluminum, are you not worried the tabs that hold the bell crank will bend after repeated use of hard cornering?

[SIK02SS]

Yes you can use them with leafs.

I have a Fays2/leafs in my car but haven't had a chance to put it to the test yet. Completed install about 2 weeks ago. I have been making suspension changes to my car and documenting results after each change by comparing lap times. I've been told that you can get into the throttle sooner coming out of a corner but we will see.

I'm interested in your results Gaetano! Let me know after you hit the track please

[LV42DAY]

i know lateral dynamics went out of business, but does anyone know someone that used to work there? preferably one of their designers.

i will email Fays2 and ask them if they would like to participate in this thread. help them represent there product so no false accusations are thrown out there.

BMR, has a watts on there torque arm kit for the first gen camaro. theirs is set up with the axle mounted watts link instead of the chassis mounted like the LD or fays2. i will also email them to see if they will take part.

if neither of them want to join in, i will post whatever info they send me back, verbatim.

by making this thread i am trying to seek out those that have actually made the switch to a watts link. there is no better comparison then a before and after on the same car. if all you ever had in your car was a pan hard bar, then how can you speak on what a watts link can do???

trying to keep it factual.

[SIK02SS]

that's beautiful. how much did it cost when it was all said and done?

granted that is pretty thick aluminum, are you not worried the tabs that hold the bell crank will bend after repeated use of hard cornering?

No worries on thickness in that piece. It's plenty strong to hold a lot of force