Mustang II MII spindle brake combinations

[67and68]

What spindle/brake combinations are available for the Mustang II, MII, based front suspensions? Specifically for my situation I’m looking for a brake set up for my 67 Mustang that has a Rod & Custom MII coil-over front suspension. The car came with the MII already installed so my goal is to improve its’ performance/geometry by minor modifications and bolt on changes for mostly street use and occasional track appearances. I have 17x8 (48mm/1.9” offset) O.Z. Ultraleggera wheels with 245/40ZR17 tires up front. I would like 13” brakes, 2 or 4 piston, and I’ve looked at Wilwood, Baer, Brembo, and the Mustang Cobra PBR. I want to have a 2” drop or equivalent on the spindle but I also want improved performance, geometry, quality. I realize the suspension is derived from the MII spindle, so changing the spindle will probably require other changes to the setup. The Wilwood Pro spindle claims to be an improved MII design by being 1/2" taller reducing roll center migration. I am trying find out if Heidt’s Superide spindle or TCI’s Custom IFS spindles have improved geometry and could be used. I don’t know if there are any other improved MII spindles out there or if I should just use a standard forged MII 2” drop spindle. I am also interested in adjustable or longer upper control arms, lengthening the adjuster slots, or any other modest modifications that may improve the existing MII based suspension.
These are the combinations I have found so far:

MII forged 2” Drop Spindle ($230) w/ 13” Cobra PBR 2 piston ($500 + custom bracket MustangSteve $240)
MII forged 2” Drop Spindle ($230) w/ 13” Brembo Cobra R 4 piston ($1,200 + bracket MustangSteve $240)
MII forged 2” Drop Spindle ($230) w/ 13” Baer Track-4 4 piston ($1,350)
MII forged 2” Drop Spindle ($230) w/ 12.19” Wilwood Dynalite 4 piston ($760)
Wilwood Pro Spindle ($325) w/ 13” Wilwood SL6 6 Piston ($1,700)
Wilwood Pro Spindle ($325) w/ 13” Baer Track-4 4 piston ($1,350)

It looks to me like my best options are the following based on my goals:
Drop Spindle w/ 13” Cobra PBR 2 Piston for $970.
Drop Spindle w/ 12.19” Wilwood Dynalite 4 piston for $990
Wilwood Pro Spindle w/ 13” Baer Track-4 4 piston for $1,675

Does a 13” 2 Piston perform better than a 12.19” 4 Piston?
I’m thinking parts will be easier to obtain for the Cobra brake since it’s Mustang OE?
Is the modified Wilwood Spindle w/ 13” 4 piston brakes worth the extra $700?
Any recommendations for one of these or another spindle/brake set up in this situation would be appreciated?

[JRouche]

First off, you might get more info if the thread was in the brake section, but maybe not cause the folks that read that are prolly reading this forum and the other way around.

Back to your brakes. I have a MII suspension in a 62 Nova. 17x8" wheels. Stock geometry forged uprights. TCI lower arms, adjustable SPC upper arms. The upper mounts are vertically mounted, not horizontal on the K-member like stock. I use shims and the adjustable upper arm to get some decent camber gain and moderate caster (I might step that (caster) up a lil, I can deal with a lil more heaviness on the steering and gain some camber gain in the process). I have a baer tracker steering link to adjust for bumpsteer, so far so good where I have it set, I dont notice any bump steer while driving, havent gauged it yet on the bump steer gauge.

Now for the brakes, and that was your interest. I have custom wilwood brakes. I say custom becuse I had to do the shim work to make the calipers fit. I bought a zero offset "kit" from a large wilwood dealer and they didnt work as supplied. I had to have zero offset because I already had the large wheels and tires inplace with the 11" granada discs, standard MII front wheel disc setup. And the wheels and tires fit with that setup. It had to fit an 8" wheel under a 62 nova, you wont see many with that wheel, 7" is the norm.

But I got my 8" wheel to work, no touching lock to lock at ride height. But the kit I bought wasnt zero offset, wasnt even center loactated. Meaning the disc wasnt running true and centered between the pads. The dealer ended up learning from me and what shims to use. I got it all centered up and zero offset.

Now.... Becareful. Look at the other brakes you are wanting. Most of them are pretty large calipers. My problem for the large calipers was due to my wheels. I have smooth lipped wheels. Which means the step that you see on most wheels is on the outside of the wheel. Mine are smooth. Its all lip, no step. But a wheel HAS to have the step. So on smooth lip wheels the step is behind the spokes. Its on the inside of the wheel. So it will limit the size of caliper you can fit. The GM and Ford calipers are BIG. They wont fit inside of a smooth rim wheel. The wilwood will. Why? Well because they dont rely on bulk for the caliper. They engineer the caliper to be strong with its individual parts and design. Not a large casting that is inexpensive to produce. Their calipers are machined from blocks of aluminum and built up, not casted whole pieces. And no, Im not saying a casted caliper is not just as good. Just different.

Now, for stopping. My 48 year old car stops better than most cars I have driven. And not just because it really puts a halt to my forward movement in a hurry. But its very controlled. I can tool around at very slow speeds and the brakes just glide along. But lemme say. When I want to put the binders to work they will stop the car like I tossed out the anchor. And brake fade isnt even there.

I noticed that when I was bedding the pads in. The process is to get them VERY hot (along with the rotor) and then cool them down. They say to brake till you get some fade and do it again, and again. I never got ANY fade. The hotter they got the stronger they got. It literally felt like I could have ripped the front end out before the brakes gave up.

Now that they are bedded in she stops like now. And I dont even have the rear brakes in the loop yet.

Umm.. There isnt any success story without a problem, right? I was under the car hooking up a trans fluid pressure gauge and looked at the brake rotors.

The passengers side looked good. The inside drivers side rotor had some flaws. And I think its a casting flaw, they are cast iron. There were about three maybe fou small sections that were below the main surface. About the size of a pencil eraser. Not round like an eracer but irregular and looked like a casting flaw. Only reason I saw it is because it was dark, not clean like the rest of the disc. They arent deep, maybe a thou or three. I took pics and will ask wilwood what they think. I personally dont see it as an issue. Even if they wanted to replace it I wont. Its not a hotbed for cracks. Just interesting for me.

Anyway.... Wanna stop on the dime. Wilwood brakes will do it. JR

[LowFast]

Welcome aboard Pro-Touring.com, can't wait to see how both of our projects turn out, we will have to hit the autocross once we get them bolted together.

Wheel clearance is a very good point, but most manufacuturers can send you a template to check clearance.

Have you contacted R&C, can they provide you some numbers on their suspension, camber gain, etc? That would help you determine if the Pro-Spindles are worth the added cost and if they truly would improve the geometry. As for the actual braking, it is a function of two things piston area and rotor size (and pad compound of course), those two will determine 90% of how well they can stop your car. I say either the Cobra PBRs or Baer Track-4 if they will clear your rims. Other than that it is a bout the bling, I am a brake whore and love the look of a nice pizza size disk and monster monoblock caliper, but that does not mean it would brake any better.

[67and68]

Thanks JR and LowFast.
I’ve contacted R&C about a template for wheel fitment, alignment, suspension numbers, and spindle options but waiting to here back. Yeah, hitting the autocross sounds great.

[67and68]

I just got this response from Rod & Custom:
This front was was and is designed for the street enthusiast. All the front geometry was plotted with more of a leaning to the comfort ride,

With that said the MII spindle enters into that equation perfectly. Of course the more you lean to the performance/speed end the more than can be fine tuned away from the street version.

Race cars and street cars are both cars in every way yet in full race trim the cars are different in every aspect.
I would go with the Wilwood spindle if performance not money was the driving force. The taller spindle will definitely change the moment /roll center and will also alter the rate of camber gain.
How fast and how much as far camber gain desired would be dictated by a combination of things. I do not know what size engine (weight) you are running but with our front in it's stock form you may also want to look at a little larger ant-roll bar.

Do not have tire template. A figure to start with is 7'' wheel 4-4.5'' backspacing. We always recommend highly that each customer figure his own backspacing needs.

Alignment specs are as follows for the street. Any deviance from these numbers is to be decided by each individual depending on their car and it's purpose.

Power..... .025 Degree Negative Camber.......2-3 Degrees Positive Caster...1/8'' Toe In

Manual..... .025 Degree Negative Camber........1- 1.5 Degree Positive Caster....1/8'' Toe In

So it looks like I want the Wilwood spindle and bigger anti-roll/sway bar. Then I will need to figure out what brakes will fit with my wheels and what modification will be needed to make it all fit. I'd like to find or modify a bracket to use the 13" Cobra brakes for cost and parts reasons.

The sway bar is currently 1", Any suggestions on how much bigger it should be?
Any recommendations for someone that builds custom brake brackets?
Any suggestions on MII Alignment specs?

[67and68]

Here are the spec's for the Wilwood Pro spindle:
http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl193.pdf

[1bad68cat]

If you decide to go Wilwood Pro Spindle and Cobra Brakes I have a caliper bracket design that will allow for a bolt in application. I designed it for my brother's 66 mustang and it has the same setup. I believe it cost around $160 to machine it.

[67and68]

1bad68cat,
Awesome, I'm definitely leaning toward the Wilwood Pro Spindle/Cobra Brake combo, yes I'd like to see a bracket design. Did you just take it to a local machine shop? How does your brother like the set up?

[LowFast]

67&68, I know where we can go to get any sort of part cut that is needed. If you get the template, getting it cut is not an issue.

[1bad68cat]

67and68, the bracket I designed is the white piece in the pic below. I did have it machined by a local shop. It is not optimized but is a lot stiffer than a previous bracket I had made for my brother's mustang. We noticed the difference right away when we applied the brakes with everything else being the same. One thing you need to be aware of is that the pro-spindles do change the track width a little. I would say 1/4" per side. The other components we used were the hubs from a 65-70 V8 drum brake car, hub-centric rings from http://www.streetortrack.com/, and of course the cobra brakes. From a seat of the pant feel, the car did stay flatter through the turns and stuck to the ground a lot better with everything else unchanged.

[67and68]

1bad68cat, that bracket looks nice and simple, do you have a schematic with dimensions/measurements? By 65-70 V8 Drum brake car I assume you mean Ford. Do you know what size wheels and wheel offsets your brother used? I'm glad to hear someone else has already been successful with this set-up.

[1bad68cat]

Unfortunately I do not have a drawing. I just supplied a .step file to the machinist for their CNC machine. As for the hub, yes, Ford, specifically mustang/cougar. My brother currently runs 17 X 8 TTII with 4.75" BS. No rubbing issues of any kind. I did roll the fender lips for good measure though.

[67and68]

1bad68cat, would you be willing to attach the .step file?

From Rod & Custom regarding improving performance of their MII suspension:
The 1'' anti-roll bar that we use may suffice, but a 1 1/8'' may be something to look at depending on how the car is reacting with the 1'' bar.
If you are using a coil-over system then you can use the 12 position double adjustable (adjusts bump and rebound) shock package.
May also want to look a performance ratio rack.

[1bad68cat]

67and68, do you have an email address I can send it to?

[67and68]

yeah, thanks.

[1bad68cat]

file sent

[onechev]

the last tci must ii clip i measured had .800 of negative at 1 ' of bump with 4.2 degrees of caster and 0 camber. if i add.250 static negative camber it would be over 1 degree at 1 '' bump i was quit surprized the nova stuck pretty well.

[JRouche]

The MII arms can be setup with a decent camber gain. I am fortunate enough to have an air spring so I can work the suspension through its travel after some changes pretty easily.

I do have adjustable upper arms but I think the stock arms are pretty close. I managed to get a clean one to one figure. For every inch of compression I get about one inch of neg camber. And thats with 4.5 degrees of caster. I can go up to six degrees of caster but was worried it might feel too heavy. Its not at 4.5 degrees so I might add some additional caster. I think Ill bump the caster up to 5.5 degrees and re-align the front end.

I mapped it all out on paper while I tried several settings so I could go back and adjust it. The large amount of caster (5.5-6 degrees) gave a better overall picture. Although a lil fast on the camber gain, compared to 4* of caster. It cambered over faster to the one inch for one inch of compression. But it also was tighter to the 1 to 1 numbers on full compression. The 4* of caster was more consistent throughout the compression cycle but trailed off to .81 at full bump.. The higher caster yanked the camber over faster and deeper but continued all the way to full compression, to almost a 1 to 1, more like 1 to .95. The lower caster made for a smoother camber gain but it dropped off at the higher compressed suspension. But it was still gaining in camber, but trailed off some.

Ill play with it. It doesnt take much. Break out the wheel plates and change some settings. Ill prolly bump it all the way up to 6* of caster and see if it is too stiff on the road, I dont think it will be. Id like to see how the additional camber gain reacts.

Darn it, this is a brake thread? Ok, um, if I increase the camber gain and level out the tire in a really hard turn, with heavy braking it should stop better because the outside tire is in full contact with the road. There Does that keep it within the braking thread? LOL Prolly NOT huh. Got off on a tangent. Solly 67and68, I got carried away. Still think wilwood brakes are a good choice. Even with the basic pads they ship with the basic kit that I got its a real power house. The suspension is a part. Mine stops flat. Meaning there is NO diving of the front or lifting of the rear. It just stops, flat and right now. JR

[67and68]

Thanks OneChev, is your set up power or manual?
Thanks JR, it's not really a brake thread, it's a spindle/brake combinations thread and how to increase the performance of the MII front suspension. Your information is very helpful, save me a lot of trial and error. Is your set-up power or manual?
I currently have power steering.

[JRouche]

Thanks JR, it's not really a brake thread, it's a spindle/brake combinations thread and how to increase the performance of the MII front suspension. Your information is very helpful, save me a lot of trial and error. Is your set-up power or manual?
I currently have power steering.

Manual steering. Not too bad, its a light car. Feels like my Fiat spider in the parking lots. But the spider will still out handle the nova in the turns. And as well as the nova feels, I forget it till I hop in the fiat, it turns like there is no limit. Kinda scary how well it tracks. JR