Where do 4 pt Harness Bolt to

[sr73bu]

Thanks for the info John...

I do have a real concern about safety... believe me, I'm not one to be cocky when it comes to safety either... I have looked into Schroth 4 point ASM harnesses and i like what they have to say.. but i'm not convinced that a "Schroth 4 point ASM universal harness" does the same thing that a "Schroth 4 point ASM harness designed specifically for a 2004-2010 Impreza" will do. They didn't test the angles, anchor points, floor pan thickness or what have you for my 1973 chevelle or a 1970 firebird or whatever... niether did RJS... I'm not saying my harness is better, i'm just stating that NONE of us know what will work and what won't...there are way too many factors that come into effect when safety is involved... Like I said, we do know that factory stuff works (newer stuff) and all out cage/harnesses work, but even then, installer error can play a part... haha this is why no one posts here... its an all out battle (J/K) and i'm not even trying to defend my harness, haha, i'd be lying if i ever felt safe driving in NJ (especially the parkway).. lapbelt or full cage... LOL



John and Don.. its guys like you that i seek knowledge from and if you recommend the Schroth 4 point set-up... i will probably get them... You do understand where I'm coming from?? I really dont know what would happen to me in a accident, I just assumed what i've got, is safer than just a lap belt...

-Sean

[NOT A TA]

Sean: Your assesment of the universal ASM harnesses is about what I thought when checking them out initially. So I spent an hour on the phone with HMS where the Schroth harnesses are sold for the USA market. After discussing my use, vehicle, angles, attachment points, etc. for my application I figured although the rear harness anchoring points might not be "optimal" like their custom fit applications I would be waaay better off in an accident than continuing to use the 35 Y/O lap belts I had or taking on the compression possibilities of other harnesses I was looking at similar to your buggy harnesses. There was nothing "ideal" for my application so my compromise was the Schroths. I knew I would be getting a bar or a cage and just needed something to tide me over. If I was only going to drive on the street I probably would have gone with something like the Morris 3 point retractable.

I'm not sure what you have is safer than a lap belt. I think Don, Greg, and I would all agree that there is probably a higer risk of spinal column injury with your current Buggy harness setup than a 2 point, 3 point and probably the 4 point ASM harnesses also because of the stretch designed into the product. That risk might be reduced or exaggerated depending on what type of seat you are using, personal height etc. A solid back non-hinged "racing" seat? Reclinable "sport" seat? Are your shoulders above any holes that might be in the seats that the harnesses go through? What angle are the harnesses at?

I know exactly where you're coming from. I was in your shoes before I decided I would be spending enough time over 100 MPH to justify the expense of installing a rollbar or full cage etc. knowing that installing either brings it's own set of risks and compromises. So during that interum period I used the Schroths. I had both the stock lap belts and the Schroths installed at the same time for a while. I'd use the stock lap belts on the street and the Schroths at track events . Then I started researching degradation of materials used in belts and harnesses and started questioning the logic of using 35 year old belts at all when really good racing harnesses are "out of date" in a couple years, so I took the original stockers out.

As far as strength of the attachment points. The stock lap belt mounts in the front and rear were factory designed for each pair to hold one person so dividing that stress onto 4 points for one person I would think would be more than enough for highway speeds and under because in effect you're reducing the load any one point was designed to take.

It would be nice if we could get some "experts" in here for issues like this, rollbars, cages etc but I think there's a hesitance to post because once things get into the area between stock and full race there's a lot of middle ground with so many variables like you mentioned. It would be hard even for an "expert" on a particular topic to give advice without looking at the variables affecting a particular application closely.

[The WidowMaker]

what we need is somebody to design a seat that is meant to take the load. if the belt holes are above your shoulders and meant to take the load, there would be no issue running them to the floor. but, i dont see anyone making an reclining seat with this feature and assuming the liability with any seat design.

im in the same boat; i wont put my kids in the back seat with just a harness bar, i wont run a cage without a helmet, and i would like something more than 3pts for the street. ive thought about running dual harnesses like stated above; harness bar with 5 pts for the races and morris 3pts for the street. i figure i can make the morris clip in and out some how.

im hoping somebody comes up with some options in this thread http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=28920

also, the roadster shop came up with something for their chevelle convertible. im pretty sure they took the correct measures. does anyone know for sure? http://image.superchevy.com/f/322080...m_interior.jpg

[JohnUlaszek]

It looks gorgeous -- but without a headrest, it could be deadly.

Also, they are relying on the seat to vehicle interface to carry the entire load as well as the locking mechanism in the seat back. Lack of headrest aside, I am curious what loads this seat and interface was designed to. Does it meet FVMSS? I have seen enough sled tests of prototype seat designs and it's surprising what fails. Also, at least in the photos, it looks like the spacing between the shoulder belts is a bit wide -- could be the perspective though.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headrest"]

[The WidowMaker]

i agree with the headrest. i also agree that there are some serious forces involved. i recently saw the upper portion of a rear seat tear all of tack welds and end up in the front seat. it wasnt torn off from being hit, it was torn off due to the sudden deceleration of the vehicle it was part of (she rear ended someone that was stopped while she was doing about 45).

i hope RS did their homework. i have a lot of respect for their builds, and im hoping they may have a solution.

Does it meet FVMSS?

what in the aftermarket does? im actually asking, but im pretty sure its almost nothing. my current favorite is the rigid ididit/flaming river columns that are being sold to replace the factory collapsible columns. but thats a whole other thread.

[alowerlevel]

what in the aftermarket does? im actually asking, but im pretty sure its almost nothing.

The Schroth harnesses meet FVMSS specs and are NHTSA approved. http://www.schrothracing.com/store/T...allye/rallye-4

[sr73bu]

what we need is somebody to design a seat that is meant to take the load. if the belt holes are above your shoulders and meant to take the load, there would be no issue running them to the floor. but, i dont see anyone making an reclining seat with this feature and assuming the liability with any seat design.

im in the same boat; i wont put my kids in the back seat with just a harness bar, i wont run a cage without a helmet, and i would like something more than 3pts for the street. ive thought about running dual harnesses like stated above; harness bar with 5 pts for the races and morris 3pts for the street. i figure i can make the morris clip in and out some how.

im hoping somebody comes up with some options in this thread http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=28920

also, the roadster shop came up with something for their chevelle convertible. im pretty sure they took the correct measures. does anyone know for sure? http://image.superchevy.com/f/322080...m_interior.jpg

I'm trying to achieve the same thing... my son is 2 right now but in a few years I want him to ride along with me (street)... I thought about a harness bar, but then theres a bar right in his face... I thought about a removable bar... bar in his face problem solved, but now I have nothing but a lap belt... Now a seat that had integrated harnesses at the proper position, that could handle the load under impact... thats a great idea!... I may do what you were thinking .... running a 3-point and have a hidden away harness for autocross..

[Twentyover]

The Schroth harnesses meet FVMSS specs and are NHTSA approved. http://www.schrothracing.com/store/T...allye/rallye-4

You need to be careful with DOT requirements. Shroth did not identify what DOT standards it complies with- maybe the one about colorfastness of the seatbelt fabric dye, or corrosion resistance of the hardware? OK, I don't really think that Schroth is yanking our chain like that, BUT I've seen $10 seat belts comply with SOME DOT specifications.

Deal is, restraints are a system. A belt isn't a system, it's a piece of a system, a good belt can kill you if it's installed incorrectly. Reading the letter from NHTSA linked to in the link you referenced, there are aspects of FMVSS 208 that NHTSA specifically noted were non-compliant. FMVSS 209 talks mostly about belt construction, and all belts sold as seat belts must comply with (even the $10 deals). I don't think it's possible for a 4 or 5point to compoly with the letter of 208, but i do think the Rally 4 is probably the best of the aftermarket until one puts a hoop in the car.

[NOT A TA]

I don't know if any of you guys with the occasional need/desire for a rollbar/harness bar for certain types of events have considered it, but there are bolt in rollbars that can add rollover protection and provide correct harness mount points. Like anything there's compromises to consider but it might be an option for some. I have one in my Carrera and I can install or remove it alone in under an hour. When the bars not in the car you can't tell there was one in there unless you go crawling underneath to find the mounting positions. You'd be surprised how many vehicles they're available for.

[The WidowMaker]

im thinking of these for a removable bar.

[alowerlevel]

They look interesting, not as expensive as I thought they would be either. http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...mp_p_1467.html