A-Body suspension on a budget

[deadeyedck]

So i wanted to make a thread that could help some people and myself who may be looking at doing the same thing.

Car : 1970 monte carlo.

Current Setup: 427 BB, turbo 350, 3.08 gears detroit true trac, 20" rims 295 30 back, 245 35 front, poly front end bushings, moog lower BJs, new front springs. The car needs shocks badly, rear control arms and springs. front and rear sway bars could use some help. Just had alignment checked but front outer edge of the tires are wearing out due to + caster on turning and body lean from cornering. this may be able to be sorted out with some alignment and sway bar.

Usage: The car is a daily driver I would like to improve the handling a little bit yet keep a nice ride. I doubt i will ever take it to the track but it would be nice to have better handling for some fun.

Questions: I wanted to get some opinions on a low dollar suspension and alignment set up for my car. I am open to take off parts from other vehicles.

Is there any way to use taller ball joints or spindle without doing control arms to save a bit?

Alignment settings : 1.5 degrees of negative camber, 6.5 degrees of positive caster, and set the toe-in 1/8 inch.

I dont know if this alignment is possible with stock control arms but i did some research and this is a dual purpose setting for daily driving and performance.

Shocks: qa1 single adjust or ( non adjustable that would work for less?)
Springs: SPC pro touring
Sway bar Front: take off from?
Sway Bar Rear: Spohn or hellwig multi adjust
Rear control arms: Spohn upper and lower.

this would be about $1800 for the above parts
so ya thats a bit more than I wanted to spend and may not even be necessary for my plans. any suggestions would be helpful.

Some new questions:
I've been doing far to many hours of research but came across some more useful things and some more questions.

Geometry and alignment.

It seems to be that upper control arms with caster built in of the 5 degree mark in combination with a taller spindle or ball joints will provide the largest improvement in the feel of the car.

question: is a lower control arm really of much value for a non competition car? Can I just keep my lower control arm and inspect it to make sure its stable?

Rear control arms and sway bar:



the Spohn or something like them seems to be the best for the arms.

Question: Do you need a rear sway bar? I have read some topics that the rear sway bar actually adversely effects the handling. many of these large rear sway bars are because something else is actually wrong with the car.

Shocks:

I have yet to find some good alternative options of shocks. I know of qa1, vari shock, strange engineering adjustable shocks which seem good at about the same prices.

are there some good non adjustable alternatives that would work I dont want a rock hard ride just better feel and less roll and bounce?

Thanks this place is great.

[wmhjr]

Not really that important, but you might want to change your thread title to "G-body ....". Monte's are G-Body cars and not A-body. Not better or worse - just different.

[MrQuick]

Not really that important, but you might want to change your thread title to "G-body ....". Monte's are G-Body cars and not A-body. Not better or worse - just different.

naw he's good....G body des didn't start till 1982.

Good list deadeye, but since you aren't tracking the car I'd overhaul the suspension using Del a lums, you might have to buy lower arms cause you most likely have the oval bushings. Then do good springs, better shock and even better swaybars. Big block car you should have 1 1/4" fronts already.

Go tall ball joints and move that camber reading to -.08 with max castor. You'll be able to do 6.5 with aftermarket arms. Stock, not a chance. I got 4.2 out of my 70 but that was with longer upper studs.

You sure about the 20's?

.....or buy used stuff....jump on them Bilsteins and springs before I do. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=71498


Vince

[wmhjr]

naw he's good....G body des didn't start till 1982.

That's the second thing I got surprised at in 24 hours here! Having focused on Pontiacs, I just assumed that since the Monte and Grand Prix shared so much of their platform, and since the GP was a "G Body" from '69-87, the Monte was also. The Monte was the Chevy answer to the already successful Grand Prix (in 1969) which outsold the previous B Body cars by a long shot due to the added length between the cowl and the front wheels creating a unique look. I never really paid attention to whether or not the Monte was a true "G" before - never occured to me. But the Grand Prix (which I do believe shares the exact same frame as the Monte - which was called the Concours during development). The Monte was almost the opposite of the Camaro/Firebird, where Pontiac and Delorean effectively adopted the Camaro model with some very slight modifications. In this case, Delorean had just left Pontiac (after developing the Grand Prix) and moved to Chevy, where he was behind the release of the Monte.

So interesting stuff. It looks as though technically the '70 Monte is called an "A-Body Special" even though the wheelbase is different and it shares frame/suspension/chassis with the Grand Prix, which is a G Body. Crazy stuff back then!

[FULMNTE]

In terms of any suspension issues, the 70-72 Monte is definitely an A-Body, all A-Body suspension parts interchange...

The 1970 Grand Prix wheelbase/frame was 118 inches, two inches longer than the Monte....

[wmhjr]

Thanks guys! That's my trivia for today. I honestly had no idea and thought the Monte was 118" also. I thought Delorean just built the Monte on the Grand Prix wheelbase/frame.

[alowerlevel]

The montes were basically just longer A-bodys, same suspension parts as chevelle/cutlass/gto etc...

[wmhjr]

So were they 118" wheelbase - same as Grand Prix G-Body?

[alowerlevel]

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...nte-carlo.aspx

Fitted with the longest ever hood on a Chevrolet, the Monte Carlo rode on a 116 inch wheelbase, and was based on the A-body Chevelle platform with 6 footer hood. Though any Chevelle engine was available, all Monte Carlos came standard with at least a 350 cubic inch V8 engine. To create a more muscular appearance, bulges were added to the fenders. Except for the fake wood trim, the Monte Carlo shared basically the same dashboard as the Chevelle. The base price was $3,123, and cost more $218 more than the Chevelle Malibu.

[alowerlevel]

...

[Zanie]

Now that we are sure it's an A body....

I'm completely in agreement with MrQuick.
For my 71 chevelle I went with the SCandC stage 2
SPC adjustable upper arms and tall upper and lower ball joints. I also added a Hellwig 1-5/16 hollow bar.
I set my caster about 5 and my camber about 1/4 neg. with toe at 1/16 in. I cannot believe how well my car handles.

I also went with CPP tubular lower arms, but only because I got a good deal on them.

That front end improvement was the best money I spent this year.

I could have put in more caster, but I didn't have any time built in in case it caused a problem (I was told if you go 6 degrees the sway bar links might bounce on the tie rods). I didn't have time to find out then (June), and haven't had time since.

The tall lower ball joints are gonna drop your front end about 5/8 - 3/4 inch.

You can save yourself some $$ by finding a 75 -81 trans am 1-1/4 front sway bar I'm 99% sure they work.

I'm purchasing the Hellwig adjustable rear this winter and replacing my stock type rear sway bar.

[taz]

Pick up a speedway motors catalog upper and lower tubular control arms are cheap as with coilover shocks and so on . Also there is a cirlce track outfit that sells taller spindles they have them form 7.5 to 9 inch tall . Circle track and stock car stuff is a great inexpensive alternative and they build that stuff to handle lots of abuse . The company that sells the spindles is coleman racing they also have coilovers brakes heim ends for sway bar rack and pinon steering and control arms . heres a link of someone that used these parts http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/fe...lle/index.html
Tim

[wmhjr]

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...nte-carlo.aspx

Thanks! Shaking my head that for all these years I thought the Monte shared the frame with the Grand Prix..... Doh!

[Skip Fix]

You know looking at that article and those spindles, or the old Stock Car Products Herb Adams used, current NASCAR spindles and the massive brakes they all fit in a 15" wheel why those don't get looked at know a days?

[deadeyedck]

I've been doing far to many hours of research but came across some more useful things and some more questions.

Geometry and alignment.

It seems to be that upper control arms with caster built in of the 5 degree mark in combination with a taller spindle or ball joints will provide the largest improvement in the feel of the car.

question: is a lower control arm really of much value for a non competition car? Can I just keep my lower control arm and inspect it to make sure its stable?

Rear control arms and sway bar:

the Spohn or something like them seems to be the best for the arms.

Question: Do you need a rear sway bar? I have read some topics that the rear sway bar actually adversely effects the handling. many of these large rear sway bars are because something else is actually wrong with the car.

Shocks:

I have yet to find some good options of shocks. I know of qa1, vari shock, strange engineering adjustable chocks which seem good at about the same prices.

are there some good non adjustable alternatives that would work I dont want a rock hard ride just better feel and less roll and bounce?

Thanks this place is great.

[406 Q-ship]

A Monte is a G-body even back in the 1970's just like a Grand Prix, and they both ride on the same wheel base. The Grand Prix uses all the A-body suspension too.

Back to the question at hand, I would invest in a good set of swaybars (1 1/4" off a 1978-81 Trans Am are perfect) a stock 7/8" rear sway bar (unless you can fine one of the ultra rare 1" 442 bars). Invest in a good set of Shocks like Edelbrocks IAS (ride better) or a set of Bilsteins (ride a bit harder). The alignment seems kind of out of wack, -1 1/2° Camber is way to much for a street driver and will kill tires FAST. If you drive the car really hard -1/2° or -1/4° for a cruiser. Those caster numbers I find hard to believe, most A-bodies are very lucky to get +3.0° and +6.0° is what a modern Corvette has, there just isn't that much adjustment in the front of these cars for that number, I would get that rechecked.

[alowerlevel]

and they both ride on the same wheel base.

Grand prix = 118"wb
Monte = 116"wb

[deadeyedck]

Those caster numbers I find hard to believe, most A-bodies are very lucky to get +3.0° and +6.0° is what a modern Corvette has, there just isn't that much adjustment in the front of these cars for that number, I would get that rechecked.

I got these numbers from an article i read.


Alignment
"To properly align a car, you first need to determine the real usage of the vehicle. It should always be done with the simulated weight of the driver in the car. McGaffin intends on driving his car a lot on the street and taking it to the autocross, but doesn't want to have to switch his alignment back and forth. I've been carefully monitoring tire wear on all the street and race cars that we build, and have come up with some great all-around specs that work well on a dual-purpose car like this Olds. On a setup like this, I like to dial in 1.5 degrees of negative camber, 6.5 degrees of positive caster, and set the toe-in 1/8 inch. I like a lot of caster for a couple reasons. It gives great steering wheel feel. It prevents the car from climbing the sides of uneven roads. It counteracts negative camber on the inside tire when turning, and increases negative camber on the outside tire when turning.
"After assembling the suspension, the caster and camber were almost perfect, while the toe only needed some minor adjusting to get it close. I only needed to remove one shim to tweak the camber and set the toe, and we were done. I see lots of guys camber in the front ends over 3 degrees and run toe out at the autocross, and while it does help the cornering a bunch, it will just grind the rubber off the inside edges of the tires when driving around town. There is always some give and take when it comes to alignment, however, my '68 Chevelle tips the scales at 4,000 pounds with me in it, and I've run these same specs as in the Olds for over 6,000 miles this summer. I've road raced, autocrossed, and drag raced on a set of R-compound tires, and they still have plenty of tread left." -Brent Jarvis

Tire Pressure
"Road racing and autocrossing A-Bodies for years has revealed that you need a huge difference in front-to-rear tire pressure. A-Bodies are front-heavy and almost always have smaller tires on the front. Consequently, we preset the tire pressures at 37 psi up front and 32 psi in the rear. Autocross will always use a little less air pressure than when road racing because you don't have the same high-speed lateral g-forces on the tires. Tire pressure is one of the best adjusting points on the car when on the autocross. As a general rule of thumb, if the car is experiencing oversteer, either lower the rear pressure or raise the front pressure. If the car is experiencing understeer, either raise the rear pressure or lower the front pressure. This is assuming you have the car dialed in fairly close to ideal, and you're watching the tires closely for even wear and heat transfer across the tread." -Brent Jarvis

Corner Weights
"After setting the alignment and tire pressure, the corner weights can be dialed in. If a car's corner weights are out of whack, you'll end up with a car that turns in one direction better than the other. That's because the tires and sway bars will be loaded unevenly. It makes a huge difference if you set up the corner weights right, and you will definitely turn faster lap times. That said, it is impossible to get any lefthand or righthand drive car perfect unless you build it from scratch with weight placement in mind. With the exception of a select few high-end sports cars, all cars are front heavy, with most of that weight biased toward the left side. The weight of the driver, steering wheel and column, steering box, brake master cylinder and booster, power steering pump, gauges, foot pedals, and sometimes the battery all add up to one big unbalanced mess. As a suspension tuner, it's our mission to get these weights as close as we can without making the car lean to one side or the other. The beauty of coilovers is that they allow you to fine-tune the corner weights, raising or lowering one corner of the car individually." -Brent Jarvis

[shep]

I would do a sc&c stage II plus kit. 9 x5 inch Circle track springs with adjusters. 850-950 lbs range is probaly good for the big block. You could do afco street stock shocks heavy valved. You will probably need to buy new lowers because of the oval bushings but they can be purchased new from speedway. Get them plate them and install Del Alum bushings.

[MrQuick]

I've been doing far to many hours of research but came across some more useful things and some more questions.

Geometry and alignment.

It seems to be that upper control arms with caster built in of the 5 degree mark in combination with a taller spindle or ball joints will provide the largest improvement in the feel of the car.

question: is a lower control arm really of much value for a non competition car? Can I just keep my lower control arm and inspect it to make sure its stable?

Rear control arms and sway bar:

the Spohn or something like them seems to be the best for the arms.

Question: Do you need a rear sway bar? I have read some topics that the rear sway bar actually adversely effects the handling. many of these large rear sway bars are because something else is actually wrong with the car.

Shocks:

I have yet to find some good options of shocks. I know of qa1, vari shock, strange engineering adjustable chocks which seem good at about the same prices.

are there some good non adjustable alternatives that would work I dont want a rock hard ride just better feel and less roll and bounce?

Thanks this place is great.

to answer your question....yes, you will need a rear sway bar...yes.