Jeremy Clarkson does it again!!!

[ArtosDracon]

To be fair, he also ahd a very bad experience with Ford of Europe not handling is GT woes very well. If I spent that much on a car and had such terrible service, I would be bitter.

[Damn True]

This

To be fair, he also ahd a very bad experience with Ford of Europe not handling is GT woes very well. If I spent that much on a car and had such terrible service, I would be bitter.

[wmhjr]

I'd agree that the comparison is pretty tough. If money was no object I'd DEFINITELY take the AMG. I'd love to have one. It's one of those "you get what you pay for" scenarios. But the cars are dramatically different.

As for the Camaro, I'm just not a big fan. It's "almost" but "not quite". I absolutely detest the interior, and am not real crazy about the tail. I think Ford did a much better job with the Stang. The window visibility of the Camaro is very poor.

I wonder what would be a better comparison for a european car vs a camaro?

[wmhjr]

same deal with the stang= solid axle.

True, but it handles pretty well even with the solid rear axle

vette= plastic with a leaf spring.

Plastic? Absolutely. Recent thread about the vette here shows that owners also agree that the interior just doesn't measure up.

Caddy= cheap interior and the bonging.

ABSOLUTELY! CTS-V has great potential. The interior isn't even close.

Viper= no trac control engine being the biggest on the market with not enough power to reflect it.

Yup.

I think his delivery is difficult for those of us on this side of the pond to engage with. Different culture over there. But many of his positions are pretty accurate.

[Wicked]

To each his own right?

And Musclecarjohn is right, other than power, most american cars are rubbish(haha).

I have loved my 2001 Mustang Cobra for the most part. But after working for Honda for a while, I started to see how crappy certain aspects are and how cheaply built it is.

[fantasygoat]

I like how the Camaro came in at the bottom of the list too.

[ProjectSideOiler]

To be fair, he also ahd a very bad experience with Ford of Europe not handling is GT woes very well. If I spent that much on a car and had such terrible service, I would be bitter.

He was pissed at Ford but turns out the issue stemmed from an aftermarket stereo/alarm system and had nothing to do with what ford built.

[MonzaRacer]

Well Mrecede can take the AMG and the CL600 and shove them.
My brother got a hard on for the AMG, kept saying he could get older ones for song yada yada, and I told him yeah buy it you can afford to maintain it. So he picks up a 02 CL600 90k, "clean" from Chicago Toy Store for $15k, brings it home and week later water leak and water cooled alternator went out.
Over $1000 to fix him self!
Then has issue with cylinder kill, so he thinks of controller $1200 normal $800 online, not fixed.
So he takes it to local Mercedes guy, this is connected with Mercedes cause they had to ship a major part from Germany after many calls to Mercedes tech line.
This fix on car he had less than 6 months,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
$11,000 . F__K THAT. I told him to go see if dealer would give him good trade on a 08 Roush Blackjack, but nooooo he had to keep it.
Mercedes can go sink in the ocean, no crap from them is worth that kind of cash.
Heck for that kind of cash I could have converted it to a twin turbo LSx!

[ArtosDracon]

He was pissed at Ford but turns out the issue stemmed from an aftermarket stereo/alarm system and had nothing to do with what ford built.

Source? I simply hadn't heard.

Oh, and P.S. this thread -

[79PonchoUK]

If you read between the lines,Clarkson's right...outside of power,these cars ain't all it.
This 2011 F-450 King Ranch I just sold has more plastic in the interior than the law should allow...especially for $67K!

Rubbish.

French cars are popular here, clarkson often rates them too.

The difference in plastics between a french car and an american car is huge. The american car is vastly superior.


It's ALL fashion to knock american cars. Top gear started it because very few people in england could argue with them and in the UK people love to hear they're doing better than america. Because top gear did it, and it's now popular in the US, the americans have started at it too.

German engineering is often hugely overrated and I'll back that statement up with examples, technical reasoning and a plastic 'tap' test on volkswagen door cards.

[wmhjr]

Well Mrecede can take the AMG and the CL600 and shove them.
My brother got a hard on for the AMG, kept saying he could get older ones for song yada yada, and I told him yeah buy it you can afford to maintain it. So he picks up a 02 CL600 90k, "clean" from Chicago Toy Store for $15k, brings it home and week later water leak and water cooled alternator went out.
Over $1000 to fix him self!
Then has issue with cylinder kill, so he thinks of controller $1200 normal $800 online, not fixed.
So he takes it to local Mercedes guy, this is connected with Mercedes cause they had to ship a major part from Germany after many calls to Mercedes tech line.
This fix on car he had less than 6 months,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
$11,000 . F__K THAT. I told him to go see if dealer would give him good trade on a 08 Roush Blackjack, but nooooo he had to keep it.
Mercedes can go sink in the ocean, no crap from them is worth that kind of cash.
Heck for that kind of cash I could have converted it to a twin turbo LSx!

Your brother got taken to the cleaners. One bad second hand story about Mercedes (and an '02 CL600 w/90k for $15k was a bad purchasing decision, as well as it is not an AMG by any stretch) doesn't make a whole brand bad. But bottom line, your brother got taken.

To me, this story is about how a guy bought an (at least) 8 yr old car that he thought was an AMG (at least that's how this reads) used, and then got ripped off when there was a mechanical failure. If the engine blew on an '02 CTS-V with 90k miles would you be saying the same thing?

[wmhjr]

Rubbish.

French cars are popular here, clarkson often rates them too.

The difference in plastics between a french car and an american car is huge. The american car is vastly superior.

That's like saying that your Mom is way more hot than your sister. Or the AMC Matador had way better styling than the Pacer.

It's ALL fashion to knock american cars. Top gear started it because very few people in england could argue with them and in the UK people love to hear they're doing better than america. Because top gear did it, and it's now popular in the US, the americans have started at it too.

And now I'll call rubbish. On steroids. The above statement is BS. Americans have been frustrated with the quality of domestic cars for decades - therein the popularity of the Camry and the Accord 20 years ago. FAR longer ago than Top Gear ever existed.

German engineering is often hugely overrated and I'll back that statement up with examples, technical reasoning and a plastic 'tap' test on volkswagen door cards.

We've been down this road before. It amazes me how few people really understand that individual examples are relatively meaningless. You see stories about how AMG is worthless because an 8 (or more) year old CL600 which is NOT an AMG and has 90k miles on it, bought at the Toy Store so you have no idea how it was maintained, had a really expensive repair of unknown detail done by an unknown shop. Yet, those same people have absolutely no idea that the part in question is used on multiple models, and has an incredibly low failure rate even in extreme circumstances. Or people talk about their "technical reasoning" and "examples" yet ignore that for every point they make, others will have opposing examples. Let's be clear. I guarantee you that for every flaw (other than price) you find in an AMG I'll find 10 in the Camaro. Which is reasonable, given the price. And let's not use some "tap test" on a VW as data about an AMG, OK?

I'm not knocking the camaro. I don't think a comparison between it and the AMG is reasonable. I already posted that I wonder what a "relevant" comparison would be. But the camaro SURE ain't perfect. IMHO it has perhaps the ugliest interior in a new car period, with cheap materials. I don't like the back end, nor the window lines. I sure don't like the forced wheel sizes, and the fact that you can't run anything more "performance oriented" because the wheels get lost in the wells. But on the other side of the coin, the camaro is a pretty good performer, and is pretty good looking, and seems to be pretty decent quality. It's a step in the right direction, but it sure isn't the final destination.

[79PonchoUK]

That's like saying that your Mom is way more hot than your sister. Or the AMC Matador had way better styling than the Pacer.

Whatever floats yer boat. lol

And now I'll call rubbish. On steroids. The above statement is BS. Americans have been frustrated with the quality of domestic cars for decades - therein the popularity of the Camry and the Accord 20 years ago. FAR longer ago than Top Gear ever existed.

To me, it looks like people have been particularly frustrated at american car quality for 20 years........for about 6-7 years.


People here have hated Rovers since the 70s.....except....they haven't....the discontent came about as reasoning for Rover going bust (which wasn't truly down to quality of the product). They produced some cars that rusted incredibly quick, and those cars had a bad reputation. But in the 70s and 80s japanese cars rusted far worse. There are none left, at all. That's not remembered though, is it because they're in favour now.

We've been down this road before. It amazes me how few people really understand that individual examples are relatively meaningless. You see stories about how AMG is worthless because an 8 (or more) year old CL600 which is NOT an AMG and has 90k miles on it, bought at the Toy Store so you have no idea how it was maintained, had a really expensive repair of unknown detail done by an unknown shop. Yet, those same people have absolutely no idea that the part in question is used on multiple models, and has an incredibly low failure rate even in extreme circumstances. Or people talk about their "technical reasoning" and "examples" yet ignore that for every point they make, others will have opposing examples. Let's be clear. I guarantee you that for every flaw (other than price) you find in an AMG I'll find 10 in the Camaro. Which is reasonable, given the price. And let's not use some "tap test" on a VW as data about an AMG, OK?
.

Lets get something straight...you seem very intelligent and generally a good bloke, but you're being hypocritical. You were a prime example of using your own single example. I've given details in numerous post before spanning the whole range of the argument - i'm not looking at a single detail from a single person from a single perspective at all. I base it on my knowledge of marketing...as a marketer, engineering...as an ex-engineer and as an enthusiast. I rarely use a single personal experience.
You however, were the first to chime in with "i've had numerous german cars and never had trouble". The only arguments you put forward seem to be about how other people are arguing. Perhaps best to the subject and stop trying to hypocritically council people on how they debate.

The tap test was a light jest at how people praise german cars now. OK?

[79PonchoUK]

Ignoring the above arguments, there is no doubt that Clarkson is heavily biased against the american cars - proven simply and blatently by the fundamentally incorrect 'facts' he spouts not just on the TV show, but in the Top Gear magazine and his columns in the UK newspapers.

Simply put, he's an entertainer who people refer to for fact. It's bound to get people's backs up.


He certainly is a good entertainer though. It's a shame it actually has an unfair effect on peoples jobs.

[CraigMorrison]

Clarkson is consistently biased on Top Gear, the show. That said, if you ever get a chance to read Top Gear the magazine, you'll find he's more fair minded and less ridiculous towards American cars.

His newspaper column is great too!

Unfair to compare those two cars. The E63 AMG is an amazing car - I got to go for a ride in one with a MB factory driver over in the UK. It's a serious car, but it's double the price of a 2010 Camaro.

[79PonchoUK]

His newspaper column is great too!

Unfair to compare those two cars. The E63 AMG is an amazing car - I got to go for a ride in one with a MB factory driver over in the UK. It's a serious car, but it's double the price of a 2010 Camaro.

$22,000 - It's cheaper than some diesel VW golfs. It can't be compared to anything.

It should be a privilege that the Camaro is automatically compared to cars twice the price....but in the end it seems to be detrimental. It's a shame.

[wmhjr]

To me, it looks like people have been particularly frustrated at american car quality for 20 years........for about 6-7 years.

Actually it's more than 30 years since the Camry took the US by storm. It's pretty simple. Look at market share and growth over the past 35 years. The US started getting hammered in the 70s - that's 40 years by my math. We can conjecture all we want but sale figures are facts. People voted with their wallets - unfortunately, a little too late. IMHO if people had done so earlier, it would have forced the big 3 to respond quicker when they had both the market share and the resources to do so. It's never been a question of capability - more a question of focus and understanding what customers want.

People here have hated Rovers since the 70s.....except....they haven't....the discontent came about as reasoning for Rover going bust (which wasn't truly down to quality of the product). They produced some cars that rusted incredibly quick, and those cars had a bad reputation. But in the 70s and 80s japanese cars rusted far worse. There are none left, at all. That's not remembered though, is it because they're in favour now.

And you're comparing Rover to the Big 3? Beyond which you don't think quality was not a major downfall of Rover? Really? No problem - it's an opinion.

Lets get something straight...you seem very intelligent and generally a good bloke, but you're being hypocritical. You were a prime example of using your own single example. I've given details in numerous post before spanning the whole range of the argument - i'm not looking at a single detail from a single person from a single perspective at all. I base it on my knowledge of marketing...as a marketer, engineering...as an ex-engineer and as an enthusiast. I rarely use a single personal experience.
You however, were the first to chime in with "i've had numerous german cars and never had trouble". The only arguments you put forward seem to be about how other people are arguing. Perhaps best to the subject and stop trying to hypocritically council people on how they debate.

The tap test was a light jest at how people praise german cars now. OK?

Actually, you're being not quite honest here. My comments in a different thread entirely about my experiences with german cars were in response to some very limited and singular comments by a couple other posters - including you. And I've been very clear that YMMV. It's also why I did not bring up personal examples here. But honestly, in this particular thread, the "examples" go way beyond being ludicrous. We're talking about a brand new AMG and one poster uses an (at least) 8 yr old stock (non-AMG) used high mileage purchase by his brother as an example of why AMG sucks. You use the example of a "tap test" on a VW.

I also think you're probably a decent "bloke" but honestly have little confidence in your lack of bias. As opposed to where I give credit for major improvements in the camaro for example, I have seen nothing but german engineering bashing from you, and no "engineering" data to support it at all. I'm not being hypocritical. Just honest. Sometimes people don't like honesty. Oh well.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. Let's just not confuse opinions with facts.

[wmhjr]

$22,000 - It's cheaper than some diesel VW golfs. It can't be compared to anything.

It should be a privilege that the Camaro is automatically compared to cars twice the price....but in the end it seems to be detrimental. It's a shame.

$22K stripped. I doubt that a single unit has been sold for $22K. But the point is valid. As I said before, I wonder what import to measure it against. It's a different breed.

OTOH, if you measure it against its domestic competition (Mustang and Challenger) it's not always a rosy picture. Motor Trend did so for the 2010 and 2011 model years, and the Stang seems to dominate it. Their largest complaints were (in no particular order) the fact that it's too heavy for no apparent reason (the stang is a lot lighter) the visibility out of it just plain sucks, the interior is lacking. They are, however, consistently impressed with its handling capability but less so with its lack of precise steering feel. Several comments about it not aging well.

Like I said, it's a neat car and a real improvement, but to me it falls into the "almost but not quite" category. Tons of potential left on the drawing board.

It's hard to come up with an "import bias" argument in this case. All 3 are Big 3 icons. Either 6 or 7 testers in each case. Universally the Mustang comes out the winner. Not surprising to me. A friend has a 2010 Shelby GT500 and it's an impressive car to be sure.

[dipren443]

He was pissed at Ford but turns out the issue stemmed from an aftermarket stereo/alarm system and had nothing to do with what ford built.

Yup,

I believe it was an immobilizer that insurance required. Not installed by Ford I am fairly certain.

[79PonchoUK]

Actually it's more than 30 years since the Camry took the US by storm. It's pretty simple. Look at market share and growth over the past 35 years. The US started getting hammered in the 70s - that's 40 years by my math. We can conjecture all we want but sale figures are facts. People voted with their wallets - unfortunately, a little too late. IMHO if people had done so earlier, it would have forced the big 3 to respond quicker when they had both the market share and the resources to do so. It's never been a question of capability - more a question of focus and understanding what customers want.
.

The big 3 weren't hammered in the 70s. They suddenly gained foreign competition but they were hardly hammered.

Again, it's anti-domestic 'facts' being blown out of proportion.

And you're comparing Rover to the Big 3? Beyond which you don't think quality was not a major downfall of Rover? Really? No problem - it's an opinion.
.

Rover was our big 3. It was a big producer. It made the most successful car ever. It made some exceptional cars and continued to sell well until they shut up shop. The rover 25/MGZR, Rover 75 etc were hugely popular and actually pretty good cars. Unions and lack of competitive labour costs killed rover - along with a number of bad PR episodes.

You've watched Top Gear though, so you seem to know more about it.

Actually, you're being not quite honest here. My comments in a different thread entirely about my experiences with german cars were in response to some very limited and singular comments by a couple other posters - including you. And I've been very clear that YMMV. It's also why I did not bring up personal examples here. But honestly, in this particular thread, the "examples" go way beyond being ludicrous. We're talking about a brand new AMG and one poster uses an (at least) 8 yr old stock (non-AMG) used high mileage purchase by his brother as an example of why AMG sucks. You use the example of a "tap test" on a VW.

I also think you're probably a decent "bloke" but honestly have little confidence in your lack of bias. As opposed to where I give credit for major improvements in the camaro for example, I have seen nothing but german engineering bashing from you, and no "engineering" data to support it at all. I'm not being hypocritical. Just honest. Sometimes people don't like honesty. Oh well.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. Let's just not confuse opinions with facts.

You're using your opinion as fact easily as much as anyone else.

You'll find 10 faults on the Camaro for each fault on a German car? That's fact? I don't think you read what you're typing.

I'll give you a quick example (I only have time for one, sorry) of how these written 'facts' misrepresent good cars...The vauxhall corsa, rated the most likely car in the UK to fail it's MOT (annual safety test a car needs after it's 3 years old). They were slammed internet-wide and even on TV because of this revelation - NEVER BUY A CORSA BECAUSE THEY ARE NO GOOD AFTER THREE YEARS OLD.
What do they always fail on? A CV gaitor clip. £0.49p fix. Otherwise they fail on very little. Does that fact misrepresent the car? Certainly....would you know about it when quoting such facts -as facts? No.

American cars recently topped the german cars in dependability polls. How do you answer that fact? Reckon there's more to that one?

I don't 'just bash' the German cars either, I just bring them down from the god-like status you're elevating them to. I OWN a german car, I wouldn't buy a **** product, but I do notice how much of their reputation is myth....no, not from just the cars I've owned, but the many road tests I've done in the past.

American engineering is everything German engineering is. Even if it is down to differing 'levels' of engineering.....the germans will trump the americans on the surface - the parts you have to touch, but the american engineering uses better fundamentals, whether we're talking electronics, engine/gearbox configuration or even materials.

And you're right - it's not as simple as a tap test.....to which you still haven't fathomed (despite me spelling it out) was a tongue-in-cheek comment.