Need Some Front End Help

[Ron.in.SoCal]

RJ - Whats the latest?

[AintQik]

Global is reviewing data and trying to come up with a plan. I went and found a bone stock 67 and my wheel is sitting at least 2" back in the wheel well which we all kinda know. The question is how to fix that when it seems when its aligned where is "should" be its still way off. I personally feel dorking with stuff to make this work is not the right answer. Obviously something in there is wrong and that needs to be corrected. Just can't find out what yet and I don't have enough money to just go buying a new set of control arms. If Global leaves me hangin, which I doubt they will, I will start asking for some comparitive data from others with this set up and see where I'm off.

[Rod]

I have had several camaros come into the shop with what sounds like the same complainant.
It is hard to diagnose for a 1000 miles away and from some pictures so I hope this helps, and keep us informed

[AintQik]

Thanks Rod.

So, for a little of my own information, on the 1st Gens, the aftermarket suspension companys build camber into the parts to correct for poor factory set-ups? So, what I have is probably "right", but on this particular car its too much? The bolt is not so much the problem, it hits the fender, not the well, the fender, so I'm going to need to get the wheel more centered somehow.

[MrQuick]

After market arms that are advertise with additional built in caster should have the lower control arm ball joint boss further forward than a stock unit. However, they may have done it with the upper and left the lower alone. Which would explain your condition. 4.5* degrees on a stock arm set up would normally put you into the rear well as Rod illustrated.

Have you asked the GW guys about this? They have excellent customer service.

Vince

[AintQik]

Yes Vince and they are stumped. Like everyone else it took me a while to convince them everything was ok on my end. Now they are trying to figure out what I shoudl try.

After market arms that advertise with additional built in caster should have the lower control arm ball joint boss further forward than a stock unit. However, they may have done it with the upper and left the lower alone. Which would explain your condition. 4.5* degrees on a stock arm set up would normally put you into the rear well as Rod illustrated.

Have you asked the GW guys about this? They have excellent customer service.

Vince

[AintQik]

The GlLobal guy and I were staring at pictures scratching our heads when I said, another thing that stinks is those big block springs are bottomed out and I can't get it to go any lower, even if we get it to steer I'll have to change those. Then he said the spring should ride half way up the shock body which its not even close. So, we are thinking the wrong spring is in there and I will remove one and check the length and part number. How that is going to affect the front to back I don't know but at least its something.

[MrQuick]

The GlLobal guy and I were staring at pictures scratching our heads when I said, another thing that stinks is those big block springs are bottomed out and I can't get it to go any lower, even if we get it to steer I'll have to change those. Then he said the spring should ride half way up the shock body which its not even close. So, we are thinking the wrong spring is in there and I will remove one and check the length and part number. How that is going to affect the front to back I don't know but at least its something.

It shouldn't effect it. Camber change would be greater than caster with ride height.

Did you ask if they could exchange the arms? Or maybe send you another set to match with?

i know you checked but for sits and giggles, lets get some readings.




Vince

[AintQik]

They are not ready to give me any parts at this time. I guess I need to just do what they say to include checking the front springs. I'm with ya, I don't think we are going to get there from here but I'll do what they ask.

I'm starting to get really bummed.

[MrQuick]

thats ok, you never know till you ask.

don't freak out, im sure we'll find something.

[John Wright]

Vince

I hate it when they mix dimensions....they should all be center to center when dealing with holes....I hate measuring to the edge of a hole rather than it's center. The business that I'm in everything is measured along centerlines...nothing is measured to the edge of a hole....OK...end of rant.....LOL, back to you regularly scheduled reading.

[MrQuick]

John, I know you have seen early GM's tolerences....its close enough to roll straight...ish. LOL

Besides, when its off you can tell.
Vince

[732ndgen]

shur does look like the sub frame is to far back,check it out when you look at the springs. you should be able to move the sub frame without screwing up yor panel fitment.goodluck

[AintQik]

I will go get her and bust out the measuring tape. I will post all measurements. That 87 7/8ths one should do it.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I will go get her and bust out the measuring tape. I will post all measurements. That 87 7/8ths one should do it.

At least you'll know if the sub is too far back (or not)...

[LSx_88_Ciera]

A fairly abstract thought but I am going to ask anyway?

When you built/rebuilt the Cam did you replace the fenders? I really can't see the frame/uni-body dimensions changing during a build but some crappy
replacement fenders could cause issue besides fender to door gap. I mainly ask because no amount of caster (within reason) is going to offset the
wheel towards the back of the wheel house that much while steered forward.

[AintQik]

Both front fenders are new. However, my body guy probably would have caught anything too far out. Here is how it went down at his shop.

Hi Dave here are the replacement panels I have for the 67
(opens door box)

This door is 1/4" too short.

What?

(points at end of door) this door is too short.

What are you high?

(goes and gets a factory stock door lays it on the floor next to mine and measures it) See, its too short. Get me another one.

Holy crap.

He did this on about 3 other panels and made me reorder them or find OEM stuff. Needless to say he knows Camaros. The reason I chose him was because when I brought him the shell he picked probably 50 things that were "wrong" on the car. Something as far off as that fender would have to be would never fly with him. When I inspected the car after paint, my only complaint was one radius of the rear fender was not quite right and didn't match the rear of the door. Its close, but my anal eye can see it. He spilt the rear quarters and reworked them, this one could just not get perfect for what I'm spending. He is just that way. I'm pretty confident I'm going to find a combination of little things. Spindle, arms, spring, subframe, I'll take it apart and see. When I got the car, the body guy said hey these control arms are wrong. So far, everytime I doubt him I've been wrong.

[exwestracer]

I will go get her and bust out the measuring tape. I will post all measurements. That 87 7/8ths one should do it.

Another helpful measurement would be dimension "F". If it's correct, you've got a caster problem not a subframe fitment problem.
(Now that I look again, "E" will also tell you if the lower A arms have the correct wheelbase geometry...)

[AintQik]

"E" or "F" might be tricky because the after market arms will probably move the ball joint, even "right" ones. I would suspect on any aftermarket arm car those measurements will be shorter than factory. However, now that you mention it, I could call Global and ask them how far the ball joint is supposed to be moved back and compare to what I have.

[AintQik]

UPDATE:
I just got done taking measurements off the car and everything is dead on. I was hoping the subframe to be out or something stupid, but its not. When I say dead on, I mean its dead on with little to no variation. Most surprising to me is the lower ball joint measurements ref "F" and "E" on the sheet. Those are both on. I thought they would be different due to the after market arms but they are not.

This leads me to suspect the upper arms, or the spindle. The fender is not going to move back and unless both sides were cut way wrong they are not the culprit. The inner liners fit right with no muscle so I feel its safe to rule them out. All that is really left is the spindle and upper arm right and the alignment right? Without going into negative caster it will not clear. Its supposed to be at 5.5*. There its not even close. If I set it to -1 it might eek by but of course you can't drive with -1* of caster.