Project "She Devil"

[tyoneal]

To all:

Finally, with the help of Ben Hermance, and Jake Parrott, I think we have enough of what we need to get the project started officially.

Concept/Story:

She's a natural beauty with graceful classic lines. Driven to Hell, to become a Devil on the, "Trans Am", Race Tracks of the Past. She continues Evolving through the Nurturing of Modern Performance Engineering, and the Harsh Environment of High Stress Competition.

"Bettie", as I've decided her pet name to be, is based on the Similarities these two share by way of Images I've seen, and the stories I've read of the famous Pin Up, "Bettie Page".

There were a number of things about this car that have been 30 years in the making. I had a 1969 Camaro in High School, and before I had finished with it, I had to sell it to go to College. I really needed the Money, and I was able to get $4800 for it to start College. That was in 1980, and a LOT of Money for a '69 Camaro back then.

Since then, Technology has taken a Quantum Leap forward in Aerodynamic Design, Chassis and Suspension Technology, and the Drivetrain Choices that are available. All this, and the "Pro Touring" building style being developed has made my goal to encompass as many of these developments as I could, while retaining a nice driving Street Legal Car.

This has become a Labor of Love, regardless of the industry Norms, and the Mainstream Accepted Trends it might upset.
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Chassis and Suspension: JRS Apex C6 Front Subframe, DSE Subframe connectors, JRS Modified Lateral Dynamics 3-Link

The chassis is composed of one aftermarket front Subframe from Jakes Rod Shop. "JRS Apex C6 Subframe" It is connected via DSE Subframe connectors and a 12 point Roll Cage, to a very modified rear subframe. Two Firewalls, (One fore/One Aft)

Weight Jacks on all 4 Corners

The JRS Apex C6 Subframe Suspension will consist of upgraded C6 Corvette Components. The rear will be modified for a more performance oriented Lateral Dynamics 3 link Suspension.

Genesis Cockpit Adjustable Front and Rear Sway Bars

Front: Penske 8300 Double Adjustable Shocks

Rear: Spax Double Adjustable Shocks

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DriveTrain: Mast Motorsports LS-3 427 SS, Keisler R/T-56 6 Speed Dogbox, Strange 9 inch Housing, Nodular Iron Center Section, Tru-Trac posi unit with 3.89:1 Gears

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Car Exterior Cooling System(s):

Radiator Brand TBA, Fan Mark VIII

Oil Coolers for the Engine, Gear Box, and Rear End will be used to help components last with the Belly Pan

Front and Rear Brakes will be Ducted
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Brakes:

Front: Wilwood 6 Pot Calipers, 13 inch two piece Rotors.

Rear: Wilwood 4 Pot Calipers with Parking Brake, 13 inch two piece Rotors

Wilwood: Proportioning Valve

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Body and Modifications:

Body Year: A 1969 Camaro Base, with 1970 Camaro Top, and with the "A" Pillar leaned in an Additional + 4*. Hopefully this will Help clean up the Aerodynamics, and still use only parts that were being sold as "NEW" during the same year. (ie. Some 1969 Camaro's were sold into the Early part of the 1970 Year, as the 2nd Generation Camaro's were not ready yet with the newer Body Style. There were places that sold the second Generation Camaro's as the "1970 1/2" models, with the 1969 Models being sold initially as 1970 models.) Since this was the case, we took and blended the two years together to enhance Performance and Styling and to build a true 1970 1/2 Camaro.

Body Materials: Steel, Fiberglass, Carbon Fiber, Aluminum

Body Additions: Adjustable Dive Plane (Canards), Adjustable Splitter, Adjustable Spoiler, Diffusor

Lower Body Pan: Full Belly pan with wind vanes and Tunnels

Mirrors: Talbot 4 inch, Brushed Aluminum

Some Body Features will be altered or removable, depending on type of driving being done.

Due to using the Belly Pan, a number of Vents will be used to evacuate Hot Air out of the Engine Compartment. (Placement in Rendering is approximate location)

Will Try and Create a True "Ground Effects" car, By Shaping the Underside, and the Exterior for Decreased Lift and Wind Turbulence, and Increased Down force and Stability.

Tow Hooks Front and Rear

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Interior:

Recaro Topline "Style" Seats. Full Leather with Heating and Cooling.

"Cool Suit" Hook Up's and Controls with Cooler, for Track Days

Two Person intercom installed

Vintage Air

3 Section FIre Systems

Modified Sparco Steering Wheel w/ Control Panel Added

Extra Wide Rear View Mirror

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Wiring: "Isis"

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Wheels/Tires: (One Set will be for Wet/Dry, the other for Dry Only)

Front: 17X10 PS Engineering, "T/A II", aka "Mini-Lites", with 285 mm or Larger Depending on Fender Modification.

Rear: 17X12 PS Engineering, "T/A II", aka "Mini-Lites", with 315-335 Tire Brand TBA

Front: 17X10 Kenesis 3-Piece Wheels 285mm

Rear 17X11 Kenesis 3-Piece Wheels 315mm

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There are many things I'm sure I have forgotten. As things start to come together, I would enjoy answering (Or at least Trying to Answer) any questions you might have. It will take a while, but we are getting things pretty planned out. Most things are sourced, the logistics are coming together, however there are still plenty of hurtles.

Jake Parrott, Ben Hermance, and myself have been working on this project already for a number of months. Due to the many Design elements it has taken a while to get them resolved. Ben has been a huge help cyphering my unintentional cryptic directions and notes.

I feel confident that Jake will do a terrific job on this project, and help make these ideas into something Beautiful. We should have plenty of pictures.

I truly welcome ANY and ALL Comments on this Build. Both Pro and Con, along with your reasons. I am very interested in your thoughts.

Take care and thanks for reading.

Sincerely,

Ty O'Neal

[Bryce]

WOW, this is going to be awesome. i like all the aero mods!. Are you planning on running any CFD analysis? Wind tunnel tunning?

Why not an entire chassis?

cant wait to see this finished!

[joemac]

I must say the rendering came out good, a little different taste to all the '69s out there.

[Bryce]

the side profile in the sketch almost looks like a 69 mustang. I like it!

[19,69camaro]

Nice concept and I really like the rendering but as far as aero stuff goes I would work about that gaping hole in the front grill first

[1994 Python]

I really like the concept. Can't wait to see some pics of the body mods. I'll enjoy seeing something a little different.

[Bjkadron]

First off.. Nice project! It looks like it is going to be sweet! As far as the aerodynamics go I have 3 suggestions

1. If you louver the bellypan under the engine compartment with a slight "bump" in front of it you could have a low pressure zone that would not only help downforce but actually suck the hot air out of the engine compartment.

2. Canards are "draggy" so unless you are going for ultimate downforce you might consider not using them. you can get more than enough front downforce to counteract your spoiler and rear diffuser using just the splitter with the ends. On the other hand they do look really cool... So it just depends on your goals.

3. Have you considered blocking off the grill area so that no air gets through? you could get a lot of drag improvement and ust use your lower inlet for the cooling air. It would be higher pressure too because of the splitter. You could also duct the radiator directly to the large vent in the hood for the ultimate in airflow.

Also why did you decide to use Penskes in the front and Spax in the back?

[Fast68back]

the side profile in the sketch almost looks like a 69 mustang. I like it!

I was thinking it looked more like a Torino

[GrabberGT]

I was thinking it looked more like a Torino

From the windshield back its an AMX to me. LOL

[93Polo]

From the windshield back its an AMX to me. LOL

I was thinking the same thing on the roof line in the rendering

Like the hood, not sure about the 70 roof, my 1st vision reading the topic was 70 Cuda top, 69 Camaro lower, we'll see once its made.

I do admire the project and the work it will take. Build something you like and drive the crap out of it.

[WS6]

I think it'll look awesome! Good luck getting this pulled off. Keep us updated with pictures pleeeeeeeease.

[tyoneal]

Thanks for all the feedback. I will see if I can answer some of the questions asked.

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WOW, this is going to be awesome. i like all the aero mods!. Are you planning on running any CFD analysis? Wind tunnel tunning?

There will be some Aerodynamic Tuning Done, however wind tunnel time in the classic sense is REALLY expensive. I intend to post what we are doing when we start that process. I'm still trying to my arms around a few other things that will be happening first.

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Nice concept and I really like the rendering but as far as aero stuff goes I would work about that gaping hole in the front grill first

"gaping hole in the front grill"

Part of the Premise:

1. Needs to not lose the '69 Camaro Look
2. Needs to "Enhance" the overall performance/performance possibility of the car in some way.
3. Needs to be something that isn't a completely "Different" car
4. I wanted to try to stay within the confines of a time in "Camaro History"

The Grill of the 1969 Camaro is one of the most Iconic designs of any car from that Era.

The car will need to remove heat from the engine compartment in a big way. Closing of the, "opening" you speak of would/should cause overheating. The car must be required to run hard.
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First off.. Nice project! It looks like it is going to be sweet! As far as the aerodynamics go I have 3 suggestions

1. If you louver the bellypan under the engine compartment with a slight "bump" in front of it you could have a low pressure zone that would not only help downforce but actually suck the hot air out of the engine compartment.

Update:
The Idea you speak of is sound. I've messed with other cars using this idea on several different areas. Yes it does help extract the heat! "Gurney Flaps" seem to work well, and can be used in a number of places. This is something I will implement in future cars. Thanks for the suggestions.

Is that what you are referring to?

2. Canards are "draggy" so unless you are going for ultimate downforce you might consider not using them. you can get more than enough front downforce to counteract your spoiler and rear diffuser using just the splitter with the ends. On the other hand they do look really cool... So it just depends on your goals.

UPDATE:
There are a number of tuning devices that seem to help to a certain extent. Since most of the drive will be at less than 100 mph, my first thought is to focus on a lot of balanced downforce. I do REALLY want to see if I can gain some measurable advantage by using these different ideas. Some might work pretty good, others might have have almost no effect for one reason or another. I don't want to artificially clutter the car, I just want items that truly add something to the performance of the car. There is certain to be a lot of trial and error. For me this is part of the joy of the project.

c. I am hoping a Functionally Fast car will be a Really Cool Car
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3. Have you considered blocking off the grill area so that no air gets through? you could get a lot of drag improvement and just use your lower inlet for the cooling air. It would be higher pressure too because of the splitter. You could also duct the radiator directly to the large vent in the hood for the ultimate in airflow.

UPDATE:

I am open to trying many different things to accomplish the goal of efficiency. Since I first started this project there have been a number of really great cars built. I hope I can refine the scope of the project, while I'm working on the Grand Sport.

4. Why did you decide to use Penskes in the front and Spax in the back?

Mark Mager, who owned the car before me, recommended these to me. He was the Designer, and Owner of Lateral Dynamics. I figured this would be a good place to start since he had more insight than anyone with his product.

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I hope these answers are helpful. If I have missed the point of your question, or anything else, just ask and I'll take another stab at it. Most everything on the car is being done for a reason.

I appreciate your interest and encourage in this build, and I hope you will enjoy seeing it go through this process.

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[Conrad283]

Subscribed ... This should be an awesome build ...

When do you plan to start building?

[ncardanini]

That camaro is bad. I saw one of the Baldwin-Motion camaros and they weren't going to use the rear seats so they moved the engine, tranny, dash, firewall and seats back. Are you guys going to lower the engine or move it back at all? Also are you using a dry sump lubrication system on the ls3?

[sebtarta]

OMFG that rendering is SICK!

has this kicked into 1st gear yet? any progress pictures?

[hookemdevils22]

Mast Motorsports LS-3 427 SS

= LS7? (LS7 being 427 cubes, with heads eerily similar to the LS3)

[hdesign]

Thanks for the opportunity to help you on this Ty. This has been a long term project with a lot of thought and I'm proud to be a small part of it.

As for the roof.....AMX, AMX, AMX all the way....LOL It's one of those things I struggled to even suggest it to Ty. I know I'm not the only one that believes that a 69 Camaro has one of the most gorgeous profiles a muscle car could have. Screwing with that was a tightrope walk for sure. However, there were some functional benefits to it regarding aerodynamics. It wasn't like we were trying to do something different for different sake or just arbitrarily modify it.

I really can't wait until this car get's completed. The great thing is that Jake's shop is only a few hours away in Maine. I can go bug the hell out of him for a sneak peak....right Jake?

[Bjkadron]

Thanks for all the feedback. I will see if I can answer some of the questions asked.

========================
WOW, this is going to be awesome. i like all the aero mods!. Are you planning on running any CFD analysis? Wind tunnel tunning?

There will be some Aerodynamic Tuning Done, however wind tunnel time in the classic sense is REALLY expensive. I intend to post what we are doing when we start that process. I'm still trying to my arms around a few other things that will be happening first.

=========================
Nice concept and I really like the rendering but as far as aero stuff goes I would work about that gaping hole in the front grill first

"gaping hole in the front grill"

Part of the Premise:

1. Needs to not lose the '69 Camaro Look
2. Needs to "Enhance" the overall performance/performance possibility of the car in some way.
3. Needs to be something that isn't a completely "Different" car
4. I wanted to try to stay within the confines of a time in "Camaro History"

The Grill of the 1969 Camaro is one of the most Iconic designs of any car from that Era.

The car will need to remove heat from the engine compartment in a big way. Closing of the, "opening" you speak of would/should cause overheating. The car must be required to run hard.
=========================
First off.. Nice project! It looks like it is going to be sweet! As far as the aerodynamics go I have 3 suggestions

1. If you louver the bellypan under the engine compartment with a slight "bump" in front of it you could have a low pressure zone that would not only help downforce but actually suck the hot air out of the engine compartment.

I am still "in the Books", trying to create a usable "Venturi" for that reason among others.Is that what you are referring to?

Yes.. but any pressure difference would work.. Have you considered something like vortex generators? Or just a small lip should do it...



2. Canards are "draggy" so unless you are going for ultimate downforce you might consider not using them. you can get more than enough front downforce to counteract your spoiler and rear diffuser using just the splitter with the ends. On the other hand they do look really cool... So it just depends on your goals.

This item was "discussed" at length. They are on the car for a couple of reasons:

a. They can bring some additional "Tuning" to the car, in several different variations.

b. They can be a useable addition within certain applications, but since I really want the car to be able to perform, first and foremost, in a long fast format they would probably not be used at all, or at least for downforce.

c. I am hoping a Functionally Fast car will be a Really Cool Car

That sounds good. and if they are removable that is even better. Just remember that if they are directly over your splitter it will negatively affect both.
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3. Have you considered blocking off the grill area so that no air gets through? you could get a lot of drag improvement and ust use your lower inlet for the cooling air. It would be higher pressure too because of the splitter. You could also duct the radiator directly to the large vent in the hood for the ultimate in airflow.

That to, was looked at, but somewhere the car will require x amount of cooling. If the ability is not designed in upfront, then going back and re-designing has to take place. The time and the dollars to do that were not part of the budget, so I wanted to try and get it right or at least close upfront on the first try.

The reason I suggested it is because you have the lower front vent already there. and from the drawings it is at least the size of the stock one. It is also much higher pressure due to the splitter. If you lower the radiator you could duct it directly to the opening then to the outlet on the other side. But how easy that is to do depends on the design on the core support. As for X amount of cooling this would be MORE efficient than the stock setup.

4. Why did you decide to use Penskes in the front and Spax in the back?

Mark Mager, who owned the car before me, recommended these to me. He was the Designer, and Owner of Lateral Dynamics. I figured this would be a good place to start since he had more insight than anyone with his product.

I See.. Do you happen to know how I could get in contact with him?
I have some questions about some of his products that are out of production. You can PM the info to me if you don't want it public.
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I hope these answers are helpful. If I have missed the point of your question, or anything else, just ask and I'll take another stab at it. Most everything on the car is being done for a reason.

I appreciate your interest and encourage in this build, and I hope you will enjoy seeing it go through this process.

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[tyoneal]

Hi Guys!

Sorry I've been absent, I had to put my wife in the Hospital as she has pneumonia. She will be fine, I've just been hanging out with her at the Hospital the last couple of days and being supportive.

I'll catch up real soon.

Thanks,

Ty

[MarkM66]

Where are you at in the build process?