Its Time For The Builders To Come Together And Stop This Crap

[Fesler built]

I know this is not your intention Chris but you're making a generalization here that rails against every small shop that's out there. If people were to heed this advice NOBODY would go to small shops anymore out of fear and they'd all be out of business; even the ones who don't deserve to be.

Square footage and number of employees don't mean squat to me. We have some truly great small shops on this board that I would be proud to take my car to. We even have a guy here who built a little Chevy II Nova that sold just a click under $200K at Barrett Jackson last year, and he built that car all by his lonesome.

Again, not trying to critcize you Chris but that quote right there alarmed me just a little.

I think most people understand where my point was going. I am a small shop I only have 5 guys working on cars so that is small. We see this all to often and I am tired of people taking advantage of others like this. I was just pointing out that people need to be aware of where and who they take or buy a car from. Sorry did not mean to offend any shops out there that do quality work.

[Fesler built]

Also lets remember the small shops probably contribute to a good portion of your parts sales. The Kryptonite car I just did has your hood hinges, trunk hinges and tail lights so be careful where you put your foot.

I wish I would have know your thoughts on the little guys prior to the build and will keep it in mind on the next one for sure.

Brian the post is not after you so dont take it that way. Its just a watch out for the small guys that dont do quality work. I am a small shop my self and its just a check where you go before you go there. Not bashing on any shops just trying to make people pay attention.

[Fesler built]

OK let’s get back to the post, I am not knocking any shops out there except large or small shops that do bad work. I worded that wrong and please stop treating me like I am pointing the fingers at you. This post is to make people aware of what is going on out there. If you have a great shop people know if you have a bad shop people need to know. That is what this post is about its not pointing fingers here its calling out the facts. I mean don’t take your car to small shops that don’t have anything to show you, that don’t have anyone to talk to about what they have done in the past, if they can’t show you pictures of builds its probably not a good place to spend your money. You need to see all aspects of a build before you take your car to any shop period.

Get references and call them and find out how there build went that’s it simple and easy do your background work and check out what they do and how it looks. Most of the time you can tell how someone is by how they act about the build and can see right up front that you don’t want to do business there. The big shops charge more because they have employees that they have to pay taxes and insurance on so it cost more to run the shop they also have taxes and high insurance rates as well to cover so they have to charge higher rates to keep the doors open. I only have 5 guys working on cars and over 15 employees working with our companies so I am in the middle. I am a small shop in comparison to most shops out there but I know the work that comes out of my shop is top notch because I care.

This post was not started to pick on any small shop out there only the guys that do bad work. If you think it’s about you then maybe you should think about your work ethics. I like everyone else up here needs small shops to move products and in no way would I rip on them. If you build crap cars I don’t want my products on them if you build kick ass cars I would love to be a part of them it’s that simple. I don’t care if you have 1 guy or 10 guys building cars. If you do good work I am not talking about you so stop taking it personal. It’s about bad work and sorry I worded it the way I did I just wanted to get a point out there and let people know that most of the single guys selling on EBAY or Barrett Jackson here and there are out to get your money and that’s it.

[parsonsj]

Chris,

Just a suggestion, but you can go back and edit your original post to say what you meant. That might help get your thread back on track.

jp

[Fesler built]

Chris,

Just a suggestion, but you can go back and edit your original post to say what you meant. That might help get your thread back on track.

jp

I just reread what everyone is having a hard time with and here it is. this is everything I said and in no way shape or form am I picking on small shops if you do good work its not about you.

"The problem is everyone wants a deal and just because the economy is down does not mean the deal is good. Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast."

I dont really see how I picked on anyone that is on this site, if they build quality cars they are not what we are talking about here. Everyone needs to stop reading into things and just go with the post. I no way shape or form picked on a small shop here. It is about the guys on EBAY trying to sell cars that they put together half ass period nothing more to read into it. So if you are one of those guys doing this it is about you and go find somehting else to do. You have no buisness building cars. If you are a small shop in a back yard or a guy that has a small shop its not about you so stop reading into it trying to find something to fight about.

[Fesler built]

Chris,

Just a suggestion, but you can go back and edit your original post to say what you meant. That might help get your thread back on track.

jp

So to clear it up I did not get off track for some reason some of you decided to read things into this. If you do good work keep it up and help people find the idots out there that are screwing people if you see a car on EBAY that you have looked at let people know that it is crap. If its a great car let people know that as well, if we work together on this we can help it get better.

[trapin]

So to clear it up I did not get off track for some reason some of you decided to read things into this.

I think what got it off track Chris was the use of the term "small shops" and even though you may only have 5 guys working for you, you are not considered a small shop by many here. Again....I know it was not your intention to insult anyone, why would you do that? My response was merely meant as a "tap on the shoulder" so to speak. After 10 years on this board I've learned to proof-read my threads several times not just for grammer but for anything that might get misconstrued before posting. I've been flamed myself on this board a few times for not doing that so I know what it's like.

I get the original intent of your post though, and you are correct. People do need to be more diligent when inspecting vehicles before purchase.

[68fusion]

after we fix this problem we'll tackle world hunger, mid east conflict and fix health care.....

live by a few rules....

buyer beware

good work is not cheap
and cheap work is not good



disclaimer: we are a small shop and do good work!

Vince
www.customclassicsandrestorations.com

[Fesler built]

I think what got it off track Chris was the use of the term "small shops" and even though you may only have 5 guys working for you, you are not considered a small shop by many here. Again....I know it was not your intention to insult anyone, why would you do that? My response was merely meant as a "tap on the shoulder" so to speak. After 10 years on this board I've learned to proof-read my threads several times not just for grammer but for anything that might get misconstrued before posting. I've been flamed myself on this board a few times for not doing that so I know what it's like.

I get the original intent of your post though, and you are correct. People do need to be more diligent when inspecting vehicles before purchase.

Yes Tony but I did not say small shop I just said the following "The problem is everyone wants a deal and just because the economy is down does not mean the deal is good. Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast."

someone else said I was dissing small shops and I didnt. I would not do that because even though I consider myself still small at one time I was really small with a one man deal so I understand where they are coming from. I get your point and would never rip on a shop unless i know they did bad work. But thanks for the tap

[AintQik]

I constantly get hammered on by people for what I've got into my 67. I do most my own work, but I wanted a very slick paint job and I wanted to the body razor straight. I did my homework and found somebody who could do it. It's not cheap. I've spent $18k in body and paint, and it still has issues, but I can live with them and its what I'm comfortable spending. My boss had the nerve to ask me, don't you love those people, how much my paint cost and I told her. She almost fainted. When she asked why, I didn't feel like explaining but only said cause it looks better than your 2009 Lexus. People amaze me. Of course Johnny, Joey Sarah can get it done cheaper. I get cars all the time that are so screwed up I won't touch them. And, I'm a guy working in his garage. When people ask me how much it would cost to build them my car they laugh. Most have no clue. Fewer have money and no sense, but its those I feel really bad for.

Guy who buys and sells all day long gets "blingy, flashy" cars and sells them at BJ and those places. He sends them halfway across the country to my body guy to straighten them up from various hacks. I get to see a lot of them. While none have split in half, some have been pretty stupid. I saw a 69 that was going to BJ with 20s on it. Slammed, looked pretty good from 20 feet. The owner of my body shop is watching me go over it with this huge grin on his face. I say, "please god tell me you didn't build this". He laughs and says of course not. No body panel lined up. It had the subframe out of some car that was close, but they had to cut up body mounts, bumper brackets and fender holes to get it close enough to go together. Wouldn't it be cheaper to get the right subframe? Or, were they too stupid to know it was wrong. The car would not turn. Seriuously, you could not turn the wheel without cathcing a tire and pulling a fender off. My guy did what he could but it was too far gone.


It sold for $60k.

If a-holes will buy junk, then there will still be junk for sale. Some idiot is pulling up to the golf course in his new toy impressing his friends. Nobody is going to stop building junk when uneducated people will buy it. It's like anything else. I'm pretty pissed because I lost a good hobby. I can no longer go buy a 66 Chevelle for under $5k because everyone and their brother thinks its worth $40k. People with money and no brains are buying crap and driving up prices. When shops can continue to get away with selling crap, then they will.

Chris is right, the only thing to stop it is education. Some cars are worth $300k, but some only sell for that much. People need to get a clue. I cringe everytime I go to a car show lately.

[Fesler built]

I constantly get hammered on by people for what I've got into my 67. I do most my own work, but I wanted a very slick paint job and I wanted to the body razor straight. I did my homework and found somebody who could do it. It's not cheap. I've spent $18k in body and paint, and it still has issues, but I can live with them and its what I'm comfortable spending. My boss had the nerve to ask me, don't you love those people, how much my paint cost and I told her. She almost fainted. When she asked why, I didn't feel like explaining but only said cause it looks better than your 2009 Lexus. People amaze me. Of course Johnny, Joey Sarah can get it done cheaper. I get cars all the time that are so screwed up I won't touch them. And, I'm a guy working in his garage. When people ask me how much it would cost to build them my car they laugh. Most have no clue. Fewer have money and no sense, but its those I feel really bad for.

Guy who buys and sells all day long gets "blingy, flashy" cars and sells them at BJ and those places. He sends them halfway across the country to my body guy to straighten them up from various hacks. I get to see a lot of them. While none have split in half, some have been pretty stupid. I saw a 69 that was going to BJ with 20s on it. Slammed, looked pretty good from 20 feet. The owner of my body shop is watching me go over it with this huge grin on his face. I say, "please god tell me you didn't build this". He laughs and says of course not. No body panel lined up. It had the subframe out of some car that was close, but they had to cut up body mounts, bumper brackets and fender holes to get it close enough to go together. Wouldn't it be cheaper to get the right subframe? Or, were they too stupid to know it was wrong. The car would not turn. Seriuously, you could not turn the wheel without cathcing a tire and pulling a fender off. My guy did what he could but it was too far gone.


It sold for $60k.

If a-holes will buy junk, then there will still be junk for sale. Some idiot is pulling up to the golf course in his new toy impressing his friends. Nobody is going to stop building junk when uneducated people will buy it. It's like anything else. I'm pretty pissed because I lost a good hobby. I can no longer go buy a 66 Chevelle for under $5k because everyone and their brother thinks its worth $40k. People with money and no brains are buying crap and driving up prices. When shops can continue to get away with selling crap, then they will.

Chris is right, the only thing to stop it is education. Some cars are worth $300k, but some only sell for that much. People need to get a clue. I cringe everytime I go to a car show lately.

This is what this post is about guys who knows the difference and have great input. Thanks

[DaviRotten]

Jus as many shops turn out jus as many **** cars as the average Joe with his driveway builds.

[MrQuick]

Jus as many shops turn out jus as many **** cars as the average Joe with his driveway builds.

ah but the shops should know better. Most driveway guys don't.


Vince

[zbugger]

ah but the shops should know better. Most garage guys don't.


Vince

Vince, he said Driveway. Not garage. I think me means me....

[MrQuick]

I thought you where the gravel walk way guy. LOL

j/k but not really.


vince

[DaviRotten]

Vince, he said Driveway. Not garage. I think me means me....

I dont mean anyone on here.. More power to the guy that teaches himself in his driveway and turns out a quality car.. Thats what hotrodding is all about for me.. The lifestyle didnt start because some rich guy had a shop build him a 32 to run on the salts.

[Fesler built]

I dont mean anyone on here.. More power to the guy that teaches himself in his driveway and turns out a quality car.. Thats what hotrodding is all about for me.. The lifestyle didnt start because some rich guy had a shop build him a 32 to run on the salts.

Correct there is nothing wrong with doing things from your house, I use to do that for over 10 years. Some bitchen cars come from home garages and there is nothing wrong with that. My only concern is to show people what to look for in builds. The people that do the quick car to sell because they see what things are going for need to be shut down and if any shops are doing the same maybe a post section should be started to warn people where to go in each state and what to stay away from. Obviously we can’t tell if every shop out there does great work but if we all start giving input we can learn who not to go to.

[buck19]

Telly/Taki - as a consumer going through a build, I can appreciate that it is sometimes impossible to quote a custom job. Too many variables. But at the same time I work for a living just like you. Where possible, I'd like to know what the cost of certaiin 'quotable' phases of a job would be before starting. I think a lot of guys would.

Certainly, you cannot quote rust repair when you can't even see it.

Definately can't quote custom one off body mods.

But I do believe there are many aspects to building parts of a car - like a complete motor, or a routine, commercially available part install where it can be bid with a plan. Sometimes even a range of costs (i.e. low/high) will do.

What I won't do, is show up with my car at a shop and leave a blank check, T&M to go to town. I just can't afford it, and want to know what I'm getting myself into. I think that's fair. And I'm not being cheap, just a good buyer. I also don't think it's fair of a shop owner to expect me to do a blank check deal. Too many opportunities for miscommunication and ill will.

I was reading a build the other day, the guy spent 22 months and 100g's for paint and body work. The finished product looked like a nicely restored, normal Camaro to me. Reading his website, I got the impression he felt taken. I don't ever wanna be that guy...

I mean all due respect and I'm sure you guys do great work. I'm just giving you a consumer's opinion on one aspect of this hobby --

Ron

Excellent comment! All of these builders that live and die by time and materials is pathetic. The learning curve is needed for all of the owners that have the money, car, parts, and desire to build these cars. They need to learn that time and material price gouging, learn as you get paid builders, should not be used. Demand lump sum pricing from the purported experienced builders. That is why you chose an "experienced" builder in the first place. Anyone could build a car getting paid to learn on someone elses dime. If you are experienced builders, then rely on your experience and give fair, lump sum pricing to earn business. You can't be in business without risk. this industry is no different than custom home building. T&M left the general contracting building industry decades ago when home owners got educated and competive capitalism prevailed. Honest builders with experience and good intentions need to provide realistic lump sum build pricing.

[PT Sportwagon]

With virtually all of the good shops using aftermarket parts and panels, would it be feasible for SEMA to set up some sort of shop certification program? I realize that there are still people looking for that "too good to be true" deal who could care less whether or not the shop is certified, but for those of us that do care it would make life a little easier and less stressful.
Ken

Well the car audio industry has the MECP( mobile electronics certification program) Which I personally think is crap. While the program has the right idea. What happens after the installer passes the test and becomes certified. I had work down on my 1990 Aerostar car audio compititon car. I didn't have time nor the place to do it myself. So I had a " Certified" shop do an alarm install. Fast forward, 4 years. 1996. The alarm is starting to give me trouble so I pick up a new one with remote start and newer features that my current alarm. I deciede to see about getting the current one working for a week or so untill I have time to install my new alarm. upon diging under the dash I find every connection just twisted and taped. To include the starter kill. I ripped every thing out and installed my new alarm system the following weekend. This shoddy work was done by a certified shop.
Since then I do ALL my own work unless I personally know the persons work and trust them. In car audio circles is about 3-4 people in the country. I also do all my own automotive work too. I don't trust just anyone with my vehicles.
I don't think a certification program would work with body shops, whose to monitor them continualy to make sure they keep up the " certifiable " work. Yes, everyone cuts a corner now and again it is human nature. But when it comes to safety ( like the mustang above) you don't cut corners unless you are a shady person who has no business working on a car, period.

Tim

[zipsimons]

I think most people understand where my point was going. I am a small shop I only have 5 guys working on cars so that is small. We see this all to often and I am tired of people taking advantage of others like this. I was just pointing out that people need to be aware of where and who they take or buy a car from. Sorry did not mean to offend any shops out there that do quality work.

If someone is offended by this then THEY are the very problem! A lot of it has to do with the whole auction craze. So many shops think it is an "easier" way to make money and hack something together that will last just long enough to be sold. I built my Chevelle RS1 as an advertisement for the shop I just opened. I had over 1000 hours of my personal time into it and that was with subbing out the final body and paint, motor install, and chassis assembly! I put $1300 in my pocket after it sold. That equates to $1.30 per hour... I could not be happier about it! I did not build this car for profit but to earn a position amongst reputable builders. There were problems with the mechanical work that I subbed out after the sale and I personally warrantied every bit of it. Our mission at Street Metal Concepts is to give people what they deserve for giving us the honor to work on their cars. I had a guy who wanted to build 3 cars as our first job but to flip! I turned it down. I build cars for owners, not sellers. Thank you Chris for brining this topic up and raising awareness within the industry. We are actually going to start holding workshops at or facility for free, to educate the people who may not be able to afford us, on proper procedures and methods of restoration and refinishing We are hoping to eventually spoil it for everyone who is ripping off innocent people!

Thanks