Its Time For The Builders To Come Together And Stop This Crap

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Telly/Taki - as a consumer going through a build, I can appreciate that it is sometimes impossible to quote a custom job. Too many variables. But at the same time I work for a living just like you. Where possible, I'd like to know what the cost of certaiin 'quotable' phases of a job would be before starting. I think a lot of guys would.

Certainly, you cannot quote rust repair when you can't even see it.

Definately can't quote custom one off body mods.

But I do believe there are many aspects to building parts of a car - like a complete motor, or a routine, commercially available part install where it can be bid with a plan. Sometimes even a range of costs (i.e. low/high) will do.

What I won't do, is show up with my car at a shop and leave a blank check, T&M to go to town. I just can't afford it, and want to know what I'm getting myself into. I think that's fair. And I'm not being cheap, just a good buyer. I also don't think it's fair of a shop owner to expect me to do a blank check deal. Too many opportunities for miscommunication and ill will.

I was reading a build the other day, the guy spent 22 months and 100g's for paint and body work. The finished product looked like a nicely restored, normal Camaro to me. Reading his website, I got the impression he felt taken. I don't ever wanna be that guy...

I mean all due respect and I'm sure you guys do great work. I'm just giving you a consumer's opinion on one aspect of this hobby --



Ron

[Steve1968LS2]

Telly/Taki - as a consumer going through a build, I can appreciate that it is sometimes impossible to quote a custom job. Too many variables. But at the same time I work for a living just like you. Where possible, I'd like to know what the cost of certaiin 'quotable' phases of a job would be before starting. I think a lot of guys would.

Certainly, you cannot quote rust repair when you can't even see it.

Definately can't quote custom one off body mods.

But I do believe there are many aspects to building parts of a car - like a complete motor, or a routine, commercially available part install where it can be bid with a plan. Sometimes even a range of costs (i.e. low/high) will do.

What I won't do, is show up with my car at a shop and leave a blank check, T&M to go to town. I just can't afford it, and want to know what I'm getting myself into. I think that's fair. And I'm not being cheap, just a good buyer. I also don't think it's fair of a shop owner to expect me to do a blank check deal. Too many opportunities for miscommunication and ill will.

I was reading a build the other day, the guy spent 22 months and 100g's for paint and body work. The finished product looked like a nicely restored, normal Camaro to me. Reading his website, I got the impression he felt taken. I don't ever wanna be that guy...

I mean all due respect and I'm sure you guys do great work. I'm just giving you a consumer's opinion on one aspect of this hobby --

Ron

Two things tend to happen in a build.. one is finding stuff that needs fixing that nobody expected. That's nobody's fault.

The other is "scope creep".. Customer brings in a car and get a quote (estimate) for a repaint.. during the build the customer decides he wants shaved door handles.. then he decides he would love a smooth firewall. Then maybe it would be nice to have the shop suck in the bumpers.. then.. then.. then.

Well you get the idea.

At the end the $15k repaint is a $25k repaint and the customer is like "WTF? I thought you said $15k!!"

lol

BOS quotes high.. in other words if they think the job will be between $15k and $20k they quote $20k since there's a greater chance that

A. The customer won't run out of money
and
B. There's a greater chance the customer will leave happy.

But I will say there are some rotten/shady shops out there.. The only two shops I will trust around here are BOS and JCG.. one is 80 miles south and the other is 80 miles north.. both worth the drive. lol

[jaybee]

OK, I get that this was a bad car and I get that there are bad builders out there but I can't agree that no one should get a car other than through a top-flight custom shop. Most of us would never get the chance to drive a cool, old car if we went that route. Some people are good with a 20 footer. No offense to those who buy those beautiful creations. If I had the money to have one of the premier builders do a ground up just for me I would, but it isn't an option. I also wouldn't dream of trying to screw a true craftsman out of his just compensation. I do all my own work, but if I didn't the only alternative would be to buy a car that was built by someone else. In my price range Fesler isn't an option, but safe construction from a knowledgeable home builder could be.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Two things tend to happen in a build.. one is finding stuff that needs fixing that nobody expected. That's nobody's fault.

The other is "scope creep".. Customer brings in a car and get a quote (estimate) for a repaint.. during the build the customer decides he wants shaved door handles.. then he decides he would love a smooth firewall. Then maybe it would be nice to have the shop suck in the bumpers.. then.. then.. then.

Well you get the idea.

At the end the $15k repaint is a $25k repaint and the customer is like "WTF? I thought you said $15k!!"

lol

BOS quotes high.. in other words if they think the job will be between $15k and $20k they quote $20k since there's a greater chance that

A. The customer won't run out of money
and
B. There's a greater chance the customer will leave happy.

But I will say there are some rotten/shady shops out there.. The only two shops I will trust around here are BOS and JCG.. one is 80 miles south and the other is 80 miles north.. both worth the drive. lol

Well put Steve. ****/BOS and Chris/JCG, I know and trust them both...

[wicked68]

nice cars are more expensive than most think.

I can tell you that ;;most;; shop owners work their butts off, its hard work, its dirty work, and they are not rich beyond wild imagination. Most are doing - just ok at best. So I would say most are not getting rich off the "wild prices they are ripping people off with".

Custom work is very expensive - its very labor intensive.

[elitecustombody]

I agree with jaybee, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a small shop building cars,some of the small shop projects can blow away the big shop's finished product,it takes some research and checking out their work in person. Most big shops have big overhead and in the end the customer pays for it,

There will always be crooks and butchers and naive fools with more money than brains, if they have no common sense,they should at least get a proffesional to check the car they are looking to buy.

That Mustang surely wasn't checked ,because putting it on the lift would provide more than enough evidence to stay away from it, because it would turn in horse shoe as soon as the lift or jack touch the rockers or floors of that rust bucket.

I'm simply defending small shops that do quality work,because I actually own a small shop and my customers get alot more than they actually paid for.

Alot of times I find myself fixing someone's half-ass work, and it makes me sick to see some of hack work.

Recent example,a year old Nissan GTR with small ding on fender and quarter panel was repaired and the whole side was painted including both bumpers,not one single piece of trim was removed, not even rear nameplate or the tag brackets ,which are held by 1 Phillip's head screw, there was so much dirt and fisheyes in the paint ,you'd get a better finish in the middle of desert sand storm, the tire dressing that was slung on the wheelwell edges wasn't even wiped off,let alone scuffed, I'm sure most of you get the picture. I've done alot of spot repair on brand new still in plastic cars for a local dealership, they also deal with a big franchise shop ,that had their SUV for over 6 months repairing side damage, in process of repair the vehicle caught on fire from idiots welding, that SUV still ended up at my shop for spot repairs for the damge that the shop caused, and till this day the dealership still takes their cars to that shop

Another example ,last fall I got a call from a guy ,that one of my Supra customers gave my number to, he was looking to buy a built Supra,being a Supra fanatic/collector/builder, I offered to build one for him to his specs,or if he gives me few days I could help him finding one ,but the guy had the patience of a 3 year old, needless to say,1 day fast forward ,he calls me to ask if he can bring his new Supra to check why it doesn't start, I get it in the air to check the stater,the power wire is hanging,lol, the whole underside is covered in fresh oil, crappy paint job ,even the battery got painted halfway,runs,trash,orangepeel, with poor attempt to sand and buff,leaving sanded and not buffed areas, poor fitting body panels,one big mess under the hood, speaker grille on door panels are glued on with some poop glue, Wal-Mart carpet pieces was just thrown in to cover the floor, radio does not work,right window does not go up, trunk floor has so much dirt,rust and gunk as some junk yard truck, radiator has rusty mud instead of coolant.

In less than a month I had to replace all A/C lines,because of crappy install of overflow tank causing the tank to rub through the lines and making a hole, replaced A/C compressor,dryer,expansion valve and pressure switch prior to that, because it locked up,replaced idler pulley ,replaced headlights because they were fogged up and cracking,

Here is the kicker, the guy went by himself to buy this car,paid $35.000 cash and didn't even bother to pop the hood, he even admitted that to me. So I think this kind of fools deserve to be screwed, I would gladly go and check out a car for someone at no charge and I offered it to him.So people like that should blame themselves first and the butchers second.



I've also seen photos of well known shop on here with not so great welds,but I will not point fingers or mention names

[MrQuick]

I've also seen photos of well known shop on here with not so great welds,but I will not point fingers or mention names

hey, those were mock up tacks!! seriously...

yeah, after all you had to say thats all I got out of it. LOL, Im slow.

I agree but should we criticize the journey or the destination?

vince

[mikedc]

IMHO there's nothing being discussed in this entire thread that wasn't going on decades ago.

Guys wanting top-grade work for second-rate prices. Guys buying cars for too much money without ever checking them out. Body shops hacking together rushed and sometimes downright unsafe cars, etc.

The only difference is that the stakes have gone up. The number of zeros on the ends of the dollar figures has increased, the expectations of good & bad work has increased, and the sophistication of both the scammers and the scam detection methods has gone up.

[elitecustombody]

hey, those were mock up tacks!! seriously...

yeah, after all you had to say thats all I got out of it. LOL, Im slow.

I agree but should we criticize the journey or the destination?

vince

LOL, all I was saying, that there are fools with money who will buy a car without getting it checked by a professional and should blame themselves for their own ignorance, that's all

There should be a law, that would help guys that got screwed by buying a car ,that broke in half is or has serious rust issues,which were covered up.That law should work nationwide

[KWIKND]

"Its Time For The Builders To Come Together And Stop This Crap"

I think you missed some people that need to come together.

Magazines

Manufacturers

Photographers

Sponsors

Car Show Organizations

Web sites

The whole industry.

I made the mistake of reading articles in some magazines, seeing some awards from big shows then writing a check.

If you don't see a pile of build pics like all good shops are doing now..... big red flag.

Why does it seem to be taboo to call a builder out?

Is the builder's money worth more than the customer's?

I think a builder's history means something. If he is running his business the way it should be run a dissatisfied customer would be rare.


Dan

[tellyv]

Telly/Taki - as a consumer going through a build, I can appreciate that it is sometimes impossible to quote a custom job. Too many variables. But at the same time I work for a living just like you. Where possible, I'd like to know what the cost of certaiin 'quotable' phases of a job would be before starting. I think a lot of guys would.

Certainly, you cannot quote rust repair when you can't even see it.

Definately can't quote custom one off body mods.

But I do believe there are many aspects to building parts of a car - like a complete motor, or a routine, commercially available part install where it can be bid with a plan. Sometimes even a range of costs (i.e. low/high) will do.

What I won't do, is show up with my car at a shop and leave a blank check, T&M to go to town. I just can't afford it, and want to know what I'm getting myself into. I think that's fair. And I'm not being cheap, just a good buyer. I also don't think it's fair of a shop owner to expect me to do a blank check deal. Too many opportunities for miscommunication and ill will.

I was reading a build the other day, the guy spent 22 months and 100g's for paint and body work. The finished product looked like a nicely restored, normal Camaro to me. Reading his website, I got the impression he felt taken. I don't ever wanna be that guy...

I mean all due respect and I'm sure you guys do great work. I'm just giving you a consumer's opinion on one aspect of this hobby --

Ron

I understand where your coming from I build everything myself because that the only way I can afford and I trade Carl Wegner my labor for his motors! Thats were I also said bring the car in stripped and know exactly what you want to do with it, that way there's no hidded b.s. to find and if you want something extra expect to pay for it!

[BADVELLE]

I look at this way, it boils down to doing a job the correct way, regardless of the size of shop or the person that is doing the job. Big time shops are not the only ones that can build a nice car or in this matter, build with integrity. So, standing up or whatever you plan to do is great, however you are never going to be able to stop this crap until a buyer is more aware of what he/she is buying. I don't know if this person bought the car buy picture only, however it appears to me that by the looks of the pic's, even prior to the eventual failure, shouldn't the bondo areas been seen? If someone is paying this amount of money for a vehicle, you would think that it would be looked over by them and someone else in person, if they choose. After all, at least to me $35k is still a lot of money.

I just don't believe that every top notch build has to come from a high end shop. There are a lot of "garage" builders around the world that can build a very nice car, better yet do it the right way.

[1973tpi]

For me this is a hobby. I have been buying and selling cars in the upper mid west for 26 years, I also have been welding and doing body work for 26 years. When to tech school for both. I have worked in body shops and was a finish painter for Pierce ( they make fire trucks take a look in your fire dept. they probaly have one. ) I thing it's great that you guys are getting $200,000 plus for your cars and they are beauitful and high tech. But you could not set up shop here and do that never! Good body shops do'nt do complete paint jods or custom builds, not enougt money in it. When I do a car I do it for my self. And would never sell a car that I built that I wouldn"t take my family on a long trip with. After I get done with it I drive it ( I mean drive it, to the east coast or to the west coast and back). Sometimes I keep them for years. And have yet to sell a car that I have got my labor pay for. Some time I lose out on parts to. It takes me about 600 to 800 hours to do a car. Even at $25.00 an hour thats $15,000 to $20,000. This is the cars he sould have been looking for. And I feel sorry for him.

[Bow Tie 67]

My 2 cents: I cant afford the big shops, so I have taught myself the " how to " to go with my, will to. I do not trust others to do the job I expect. If, and thats a big if, you can find an " actual " mechanic / craftsman you will end up with a safe professional build.

I have to laugh at the word professional, as many shops will claim just that. But, when an average Joe like myself claims a professional job, the prospective buyer askes which shop did the work. :bsjerk:

[Finch]

I feel there is still risk in dealing with so called professional shops. They have the lawyers and contracts with fine print and hide behind Limited Liability structures. A professional crook can setup shop and appear to be top notch, with the way the system works he can take 20-30 people for a ride before folding, moving a block down the street and starting under a new name.

I am one of the builders doing it on the side for fun out of my house and can say that I have to look my customers in the eye and shake their hand on a deal. If they are not happy they will be on my door step so I cannot hide from it nor have I ever had to.

There will always be crooks in every aspect of business so the only way to fix it is a better educated buyer. Sometimes that lesson is expensive but I can assure you your customer will never make that mistake again.

[trapin]

Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast.

I know this is not your intention Chris but you're making a generalization here that rails against every small shop that's out there. If people were to heed this advice NOBODY would go to small shops anymore out of fear and they'd all be out of business; even the ones who don't deserve to be.

Square footage and number of employees don't mean squat to me. We have some truly great small shops on this board that I would be proud to take my car to. We even have a guy here who built a little Chevy II Nova that sold just a click under $200K at Barrett Jackson last year, and he built that car all by his lonesome.

Again, not trying to critcize you Chris but that quote right there alarmed me just a little.

[BuddyP]

Wow... this is one reason I wanted to build a car from frame up vs one that was already a driver. I figured the only way I would be happy would be to strip it down to bare bones anyway. At least this way I know how everything was put together and the condition it was in when doing so.

When I picked up my roller the guy already had qtr skins welded on, trunk pan patches welded on and floor pan patches fit ready to be welded. I ended up tearing out the complete floor, trunk pan and qtrs and put on new full floor pan, trunk pan and full qtrs. Just the thought of cobbled up overlapping panels, welds, etc. was going to bug me.

[colt zantop]

also remember....in certain situations...even "big name" "well known" shops have their problems.....I wont go any further... :(

[Tyler Beauregard]

Holy sh*t! That thing is cracked in half! That's even worse than the white car I sold you! (but not by much ;-P)

Tyler

[Finch]

Also lets remember the small shops probably contribute to a good portion of your parts sales. The Kryptonite car I just did has your hood hinges, trunk hinges and tail lights so be careful where you put your foot.

I wish I would have know your thoughts on the little guys prior to the build and will keep it in mind on the next one for sure.