alcon vs. others

[cheapthrillz]

Yeah, he left and wanted his account deleted. I guess you can't please everyone.

Awww, I'm gonna miss him.... Some people just don't get it I guess....

Heck, I was starting to believe that we were all ignorant morons....

[jknight16]

Awww, I'm gonna miss him.... Some people just don't get it I guess....

Heck, I was starting to believe that we were all ignorant morons....

Yeah, that's tragic. Good riddance.

I'm still amazed that he thought glowing red rotors on a race car were indicative of a problem or inefficient system. Guess all those cars at LeMans were using the wrong brake components...

[L & H Kustoms]

This has been a great thread to read havent had a good one like this in a while

[Damn True]

It makes things easier for all of us when an individual takes it upon themselves to prove their abject stupidity rather than requiring the effort of another to do it for them.

[David Pozzi]

Thought I'd add a couple of details on Bad Penny's brakes.

We'd had good luck at Spring Mountain with the Wilwood brakes in 2008. I insisted Steve get better pads suited for track use, but after seeing the track the day before the event, I opted to not install them as we were told they were hard on the rotors for street use when the pads are cold, and we needed to do the autocross and I felt the hard pads might cost us time for that event if they didn't get up to temp quick enough. Spring Mountain did not appear to have enough repeated braking areas to cause the street pads to overheat. I turned out to be right, as we won the event with no brake problems.

At Gingerman, the track has 4 very hard braking areas at the ends of various length straights. We had never run that track before and not heard any tips on running well there. The street pads worked fine in practice, but when Steve ran his timed runs, they faded. He came in and I took over and they faded on me after half a lap. No pedal drop, the pads just gave up. If I ever run there again I'll pay a lot more attention to getting better pads on the car in advance.

I have nothing bad to say about the Willwood brakes on Penny. We did have an issue with a rear caliper coming loose at Button Willow, but that is our fault for not catching it. Penny arrived Monday, I left Thursday for the track, I did a check of the car, switched wheels and tires, and did a brake bleed. I was trying to finish Mary's 68 Camaro on the lift to enable us to put Penny on it, but ran out of time. We did try those high temp pads at Button Willow, and they worked well. Willwood was always helpful.

For the 2009 optima Invitational, Baer brakes were put on Penny to do an install article on their new 6p calipers. This afforded an opportunity to upsize to 14" rotors from the 13" Willwoods and freshen up the brakes. Baer is very supportive of many Pro-Touring events and I can't say enough about their Integrity, products, and service. Prior to SEMA Steve had a new larger bore master cyl hang up, causing the brakes to drag. This overheated the brakes on the street and warped the rotors. There was no time to change them before Penny had to be on display at SEMA.

At Spring Mountain we changed pads and rotors the night before the optima Challenge and Steve did some quick brake seasoning in the (very dark) pits. When I went out on track the next day, I was a bit afraid of what kind of brakes I'd have. While I left a little margin for error I found the brakes had no issues on track, and seemed to get better and better as I went.

If Baer and Hawk had not gotten us new rotors and pads we would not have done nearly as well. Steve finished 2nd to the Cobra in the 0-60-0!
David

[phenometron]

Just be sure to separate the wheat from the chaff. Don't believe what you read on this, or any other website, withot doing your own research. Understand what changes you want to make, and why, before you open your wallet

Lot of emotion on this thread, lots of people like or dislike one manufacturer or another. Unless they can provide objective reasons why they like or dislike a product, the stated opinion is just that, a baseless opinion. There's also an exposure variable. Some posters may have been exposed to a limited number o permutations. These opinions can be weighted at to the advantages and disadvantages of the products they have exposure to, but their opinions on products they have not been exposed to should be challenged.

I understand completely. I look for credibility in past posts, I look for common opinions on certain products and common reasons why they like certain products. Then I start researching those products...which sometime opens up other avenues and options along the way. Thanks though, I appreciate your comment! I'm sure I'll be posting more help questions in the future! And yeah, nice name you have there! If you ever make your wife furious... LOL I know we don't deal in ricers here, but it was too easy.

[STI_Guy]

After reading this thread, it sounds like a lot of people have had incorrect expectations of a product that’s resulted in subpar performance. Since it sounds like all the systems that have had issues have been fully custom you have to accept responsibility as a builder sometimes for things not working correctly. So many things go into a brake kit, its way more than having the right master cylinder for the given caliper bores. Example Brembo does not sell the GT line calipers separate for a reason, they only want those calipers on cars they engineered a package for. Now the Race stuff you can find all over. They have the idea to preserve an image they have created by doing this, I believe this is exactly why you don’t see factory Brembo kits on Pro-Touring cars.

[James OLC]

I don't want to read through this whole post again because my brain is not prepared to revisit the abuse but... IIRC... I don't think that anybody on this site had incorrect expectations of their brakes however there probably was a comment or two complaining about sub par performance (with one particular brand of brakes). And I think that the biggest issue with that one particular brand of brakes is that they are universal by definition and it has been possible to, as you point out, create a combination that just does not work very well. But I think that is the exception and not the rule. I don't recall anyone with Alcon, AP, Baer, Brembo, or factory replacement brakes complaining about being dissappointed - most of the (useful) comments in this thread have been focused on optimizing the brakes that we are using - there is a big difference. But as you say - these are custom applications and there should not be an expectation of perfect performance right out of the box.

I have to disagree with you on the Brembo's though - anyone can buy GT kits off the internet and bolt them on if they want to. It's a matter of choice, not availability.

[jknight16]

I don't think that anybody on this site had incorrect expectations of their brakes.... I don't recall anyone with Alcon, AP, Baer, Brembo, or factory replacement brakes complaining about being dissappointed -

I have to second that, I haven't heard of anyone that has been disappointed with the braking performance of any of these brand's kits. In fact, my personal experience has shown that a glorified (baer version) C5/C6 brake system can work amazingly well on a 1st gen PT car. Now, the jury is still out on handling the track abuse, but we'll see. Guys like Tobin at Kore3 know how to get these systems to work very well even when they're not bolted to a corvette.

I agree that most people don't use Brembo by choice, which is driven by budget.

[STI_Guy]

I guess I should have been clearer, you guys are correct anyone can go buy a GT kit off the shelf but I just don’t see Brembo specifically designed kits for many of the pro touring cars. Subpar performance is not strictly braking performance but also caliper durability and application. Just my take. I’ve used quite a few brands of brakes on cars and have to also agree in customs applications it takes work sometimes to extract the exact performance level you require from the braking system. I’ve held off from bad mouthing or writing off a brand unless after all resources have been exhausted, and they still do not perform to the desired level.

[MuscleRodz]

I guess I should have been clearer, you guys are correct anyone can go buy a GT kit off the shelf but I just don’t see Brembo specifically designed kits for many of the pro touring cars. Subpar performance is not strictly braking performance but also caliper durability and application. Just my take. I’ve used quite a few brands of brakes on cars and have to also agree in customs applications it takes work sometimes to extract the exact performance level you require from the braking system. I’ve held off from bad mouthing or writing off a brand unless after all resources have been exhausted, and they still do not perform to the desired level.

CPP has exclusive rights to sell the musclecar kits

[monza]

LOL thanks guys... entertaining and informative!

[Steve1968LS2]

I think hemicuda speaks the truth here. Bad Penny definitely holds the proof too. Last year at Spring Mountain, running WILWOODS!!! the car won the optima Street Car Invitational, this last time he ditched the Wilwoods for Baer and finished fourth. Undeniable proof!

Edit - statement is a fact, so please don't delete it.

Matt

Uh.. no..

My switch to Baer from Wilwood had nothing to do with problems.. there were several reasons.

Keep in mind that Penny is a work in progress.. and a magazine car. as such things change.. I'm on my fourth engine, fourth type of tire, third set of gauges, third transmission, etc

You get the idea. I WON the optima on the Wilwoods, the company has always been good to me and thier products never let me down. I had a brake problem ONCE and that was because I ran the wrong pads and cooked them on the track.

Baer is an advertiser in my book, they also sponsor quite a few events (like the Optima) and they make a great product. When they asked me to try thier stuff I decided to since I had never ran Baer products and wanted to see how they were. Since I'm often asked my opinion on stuff it's good to get experience with a lot of different companies so I can offer intelligent (i hope) thoughts.

I will say thier stuff worked great.. as evidenced by the fact that I came in second for the 0-60-0, beating the GT-R. Baer also had great customer service and they are a great company to work with.

I like both brands and wouldn't hessitate to use either on a project. In fact the Track Rat project has a set of Baer brakes waiting in the garage.

The only problem with the Baer brakes at the Optima was that we were BRAND NEW.. as in put on the night before. Because of this David was afraid to push them on the track, that combined with unfamiliar times led to lower than expected lap times.

I on the other hand am to stubborn to take it easy on stuff so I pushed the brakes and they rewarded me with a 7.4 second 0-60-0.

I hope that sets the record straight.. feel free to ask me any questions.

[Matt@BOS]

Nice of you to jump in here. While I was joking, I wouldn't want anyone to take my statement to heart, especially considering that many weren't aware of why you switched brakes. Now, I just have one question, what were your lap times in '09 compared to '08? I ask just out of curiosity, you don't have to give a detailed description of what changed from year to year, unless, of course you'd like to. I know there were so many other factors to account for you could probably write a year to year comparison test about experience you and David had with Bad Penny at optima in '08 vs '09 for Camaro Performers.

Matt

[Payton King]

In your above post you stated "unfamiliar times" and I know you meant to say "unfamiliar TIRES"

Happens to me all the time when i am typing fast and have a lot to say.

I still think the TV interviews you did for the optima Challenge will finally launch your porn career. LOL

Really, you did a great job...well spoken

[Steve1968LS2]

Nice of you to jump in here. While I was joking, I wouldn't want anyone to take my statement to heart, especially considering that many weren't aware of why you switched brakes. Now, I just have one question, what were your lap times in '09 compared to '08? I ask just out of curiosity, you don't have to give a detailed description of what changed from year to year, unless, of course you'd like to. I know there were so many other factors to account for you could probably write a year to year comparison test about experience you and David had with Bad Penny at optima in '08 vs '09 for Camaro Performers.

Matt

I just didn't want people to get the wrong idea.. Wilwood has been nothing but good to me

About the same on the lap times.. funny since we were faster in the top speeds. But, as Dave pointed out, he broke sooner and due to a lack of time with the tires didn't feel he pushed the car hard enough.

We suffered from not knowing the car on those tires. But overall the car was MUCH better than last year. Heck, it was crazy good in the autocross on my exhibition lap.

[Steve1968LS2]

In your above post you stated "unfamiliar times" and I know you meant to say "unfamiliar TIRES"

Happens to me all the time when i am typing fast and have a lot to say.

I still think the TV interviews you did for the optima Challenge will finally launch your porn career. LOL

Really, you did a great job...well spoken

That's it.. I'm firing my copy editor!!!!!!!!!!

[6'9"Witha69]

That's it.. I'm firing my copy editor!!!!!!!!!!

Steve, would you please show Steve to the door.