Roll cage

[chopsmitty]

Experience.

My last American Iron car sports a Mig welded DOM cage (I think it's in So. Calif. now). It was a race car. A tool. I didn't care how it looked, only that it functioned.

My point (purely opinion based on experience) was made in response to a question posed by a guy wondering if he should buy a bolt in roll bar/cage for his street driven show vechicle that rarely sees track usage. Again, IMO a roll bar is nearly a waste of time from a safety/cabin room gobbled up standpoint. Might as well finish out the cage at minimal additional investment.

The reduction in weight is well worth the cost unless you're on your last dime... in which case you shouldn't be here looking for ways to blow your knot. This guy, like most on this site, wants something that looks great and functions - probably in that order or equally important. A proper Tig weld provides the look that the average stock car builder just isn't interested in acheiving and, when done properly, is equally as strong, if not stronger.

If it's absolutely required on the fastest of the fastest in the eyes of SFI, why is it bad to make this the 'benchmark'?

[JohnUlaszek]

With respect to NASA, American Welding Society D1.1, 1994 Edition, Structural Welding Code, Chapter 10, 62 is the governing requirement for welds.
Chrome-Moly and DOM are acceptable tubing for all weight classes.

From the 2010 NASA Club Codes and Regulations

15.6.15 Welds
All welding must be of the highest quality with full penetration and shall conform to the
American Welding Society D1.1, 1994 Edition, Structural Welding Code, Chapter 10, 62
Tubular Structures and Standards for the material used. Arc welding should be used whenever possible.

15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
3001 - 4000 lbs.
1.750” x .120” Chrome-moly / Seamless mild steel (CDS or DOM)
No ERW allowed.

[JohnUlaszek]

So I've never welded, just started practicing on scrap metal. If I buy one of the pre fabbed 4, or 6-point cages for my 67 Camaro would I have any chance at installing it myself if I learn fast, or is it best I leave it to a professional. I know 6 point cages run around 400 for chromoly. And I heard around $100 per point so 600 install. $1000 overall, if I remove and reinstall interior. But I look at some costs guys have into their cages and its anywhere from 1500 to 2800? I'm looking through internet and in magazine build in PHR, Hot Rod, and Chevy Hi-perf. I really want to be able to use harnesses since the lap belt isn't too reassuring, especially if i rolled. And I plan on driving this car hard so alwaya risk. Plus a 6 point would provide side protection if I got T-boned.

The original poster has questions that speak to safety, convenience, and cost issues that most of us have, or should have thought about -- this thread has done little to answer those questions.

ScottT, I would suggest studying the NASA handbook as a starting point bearing in mind the competing requirements of street and track use.

This story from the NASA web site speaks to some of the competing requirements -- http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/rollover.html

[Gitter Dun]

And to the original poster's question, this story from the NASA web site speaks to his concerns -- http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/rollover.html

Thanks John, I,ve been reading this thread for awhile and it seems it had gotten away from it's original intent.

Scott,If you are choosing to have the option of a 6 point roll cage the least expensive and safest bet for you is the Auto Power custom fit roll cage for 67-69 Camaro. It is a bolt together application and is SCCA and NASA approved. it cost me $650 at the time. The one I used is 1.75 X .120 DOM. Other options are available depending on weight of car.

This will give you the option of removing the door bars and hoop.

[Damn True]

Experience.

My last American Iron car sports a Mig welded DOM cage (I think it's in So. Calif. now). It was a race car. A tool. I didn't care how it looked, only that it functioned.

My point (purely opinion based on experience) was made in response to a question posed by a guy wondering if he should buy a bolt in roll bar/cage for his street driven show vechicle that rarely sees track usage. Again, IMO a roll bar is nearly a waste of time from a safety/cabin room gobbled up standpoint. Might as well finish out the cage at minimal additional investment.

The reduction in weight is well worth the cost unless you're on your last dime... in which case you shouldn't be here looking for ways to blow your knot. This guy, like most on this site, wants something that looks great and functions - probably in that order or equally important. A proper Tig weld provides the look that the average stock car builder just isn't interested in acheiving and, when done properly, is equally as strong, if not stronger.

If it's absolutely required on the fastest of the fastest in the eyes of SFI, why is it bad to make this the 'benchmark'?

Thanks for the clarification on where you were coming from.

[Damn True]

The original poster has questions that speak to safety, convenience, and cost issues that most of us have, or should have thought about -- this thread has done little to answer those questions.

ScottT, I would suggest studying the NASA handbook as a starting point bearing in mind the competing requirements of street and track use.

This story from the NASA web site speaks to some of the competing requirements -- http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/rollover.html

A "roll-bar" as a chassis stiffening device/harness bar for street and autocross use should be a pretty easy thing for any competent builder to construct in such a way as to be unobtrusive. That said, once the bars go in, the back seat should be off limits.

As for track use, NASA and SCCA both have some pretty "liberal" requirements for lapping days. Given that it is concieveable that many of our cars have the ability to attain speeds equal to, or greater, than all but the fastest "club" racing classes it seems to me that the safety systems installed in the car should be equal to those of cars of similar capability.

At the end of the day, a wreck going into turn 8 at Thunderhill will be just as dangerous in a '68 Camaro going 100mph as it is in an CMC '98 Camaro at the same speed. Don't you think the car should be similarly equipped?

[ScottT]

Gitter Dun- Thank you, I think that is my best bet if I get a cage.

I am going to install the 3 point retractable belts for now. Why is it considered unsafe to have a cage on the street? I only put 2-3k miles on the car at most a year, do 4-6 autocross events every summer, and would love to do a track day or even a few if its possible at my local track. During those 2-3k miles a year, I'm driving the hell out of the car. So what re the issues with it being unsafe on the street? I would have quite thick rollcage padding, and if I was even not wearing 5-points strapped down tight I would have the 3 point retractable on. Might look weird having both but I think better to have 3 point on when cruising rather then a loose 5 point.

[Damn True]

Gitter Dun- Thank you, I think that is my best bet if I get a cage.

I am going to install the 3 point retractable belts for now. Why is it considered unsafe to have a cage on the street? I only put 2-3k miles on the car at most a year, do 4-6 autocross events every summer, and would love to do a track day or even a few if its possible at my local track. During those 2-3k miles a year, I'm driving the hell out of the car. So what re the issues with it being unsafe on the street? I would have quite thick rollcage padding, and if I was even not wearing 5-points strapped down tight I would have the 3 point retractable on. Might look weird having both but I think better to have 3 point on when cruising rather then a loose 5 point.

A lot of crazy things can happen to the human body in a collision. The body will reach places in the car far beyond what you can imagine. The thinking is that an unhelmeted head can make contact with cage members that are much closer to vehicle occupants than the "normal" structure of the car might be. You can of course mitigate this by the proper wearing of a harness, but that takes a level of commitment that few are willing to undertake when "going for a ride".

It is generally frowned upon to have a halo and a-pillar bars on a "street car" for this reason. The addition of legit roll bar padding (the SFI stuff, not the crap you can buy at 4wheel parts) is IMO a necessity. Further, the back seat should be off limits if there is a cage/roll-bar installed.

Just know that the addition of a "full-cage" to a street car does come with some risks of it's own. A properly designed/built cage does increase the integrity of the passenger compartment, but it increases the chances of collateral injury in a collision under "normal" street driving conditions.

[Gitter Dun]

A lot of crazy things can happen to the human body in a collision. The body will reach places in the car far beyond what you can imagine. The thinking is that an unhelmeted head can make contact with cage members that are much closer to vehicle occupants than the "normal" structure of the car might be. You can of course mitigate this by the proper wearing of a harness, but that takes a level of commitment that few are willing to undertake when "going for a ride".

It is generally frowned upon to have a halo and a-pillar bars on a "street car" for this reason. The addition of legit roll bar padding (the SFI stuff, not the crap you can buy at 4wheel parts) is IMO a necessity. Further, the back seat should be off limits if there is a cage/roll-bar installed.

Just know that the addition of a "full-cage" to a street car does come with some risks of it's own. A properly designed/built cage does increase the integrity of the passenger compartment, but it increases the chances of collateral injury in a collision under "normal" street driving conditions.

All that you said is very true, one whom makes the decision of running a full cage in the street must be aware of the dangers and I appreciate you making Scott aware of this. But I think Scott wants the option of removing hoop and door bars which an Auto Power cage will allow you to do. As for myself, I had my Auto Power cage welded throughout and purchased it to save major dollars on a custom install. my car sees the street for a short time twice a month and I am more geared toward track rather than street because I just cant seem to keep my foot out of it and for the safety of myself and the public it's simply the best solution. I am currently shopping Hans devices because even with a helmet and sfi padding on the hoop I still feel pretty confident that major damage could be had.

[Gitter Dun]

Gitter Dun- Thank you, I think that is my best bet if I get a cage.

I am going to install the 3 point retractable belts for now. Why is it considered unsafe to have a cage on the street? I only put 2-3k miles on the car at most a year, do 4-6 autocross events every summer, and would love to do a track day or even a few if its possible at my local track. During those 2-3k miles a year, I'm driving the hell out of the car. So what re the issues with it being unsafe on the street? I would have quite thick rollcage padding, and if I was even not wearing 5-points strapped down tight I would have the 3 point retractable on. Might look weird having both but I think better to have 3 point on when cruising rather then a loose 5 point.

One of the most dangerous reasons of running a full cage would be breaking your skull on the front hoop if you rear ended someone or had to instantly hit the breaks or even if someone rearended you. Passengers would be most opt to hit there heads due to the reason that they are not as familiar with your car and might not think of preparing themselves properly if they were lucky enough to have the split second chance to save themselves. If your car sees alot of street time I would definitely not run a full cage.

[mikedc]

One of the most dangerous reasons of running a full cage would be breaking your skull on the front hoop if you rear ended someone or had to instantly hit the breaks or even if someone rearended you. Passengers would be most opt to hit there heads due to the reason that they are not as familiar with your car and might not think of preparing themselves properly if they were lucky enough to have the split second chance to save themselves. If your car sees alot of street time I would definitely not run a full cage.

Yeah, but how do you crack your skull on a properly padded rollbar?

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[MrQuick]

no such thing, to protect your skull at highway speeds much less track speeds it would need to be 4 inches thick. Then it would most likely snap your neck.

We no longer build cages for street cars. Had a friend suffer some serious brain damage from a 45 mph side impact crash when his head hit a bar that was 4 1/2" away from his head and was properly covered with with track padding. Took him 3 months to learn how to walk again.

Padded bars are only good if you are wearing a helmet IMHO.
Vince

[mikedc]

I'm not calling you a liar, but what modern "safe" car lives up to those standards?

There probably isn't a modern (5-star safety tested) car on the market that keeps more than 1-2" of padding between all the upholstery surfaces and the underlying steel. And the underlying steel is sometimes very close to the driver's head in a modern 2dr coupe.


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[MrQuick]

I don't know why you would want to call me a liar but I thought we were having a discussion not a debate? LOL

Not calling you out or anything.

Hard to compare a modern car. Its designed to have a driver sits in a certain position, the seat belts are designed to hold the driver to a certain distance and airbags side curtains are designed to keep the driver from areas of injury. Safety is in the design.

If a car was designed to have a roll bar then you could make it safe but adding a bar pad to a roll cage headache bar will not do much to keep you from sustaining head injuries. But you are right at certain speeds you are SOL.


I think its safe to say adding a roll cage will increase your chances of smashing your head into a steel bar in an accident by at least 50%.

I was just saying cages should be used in conjunction with a helmet.

Vince

[Gitter Dun]

Yeah, but how do you crack your skull on a properly padded rollbar?

---

Have you ever seen an SFI approved roll cage pad? It may not crack your skull but could definitely knock you out.

Just doesn't seem like a good decision to me to use a full cage in a frequently driven street car.

To each his own.

[Gitter Dun]

I don't know why you would want to call me a liar but I thought we were having a discussion not a debate? LOL

Not calling you out or anything.

Hard to compare a modern car. Its designed to have a driver sits in a certain position, the seat belts are designed to hold the driver to a certain distance and airbags side curtains are designed to keep the driver from areas of injury. Safety is in the design.

If a car was designed to have a roll bar then you could make it safe but adding a bar pad to a roll cage headache bar will not do much to keep you from sustaining head injuries. But you are right at certain speeds you are SOL.



I think its safe to say adding a roll cage will increase your chances of smashing your head into a steel bar in an accident by at least 50%.

I was just saying cages should be used in conjunction with a helmet.

Vince

Couldn't agree with you more.

[Twentyover]

I'm not calling you a liar, but what modern "safe" car lives up to those standards?

There probably isn't a modern (5-star safety tested) car on the market that keeps more than 1-2" of padding between all the upholstery surfaces and the underlying steel. And the underlying steel is sometimes very close to the driver's head in a modern 2dr coupe.


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I'm sure that having front and side curtain airbags turns that 1-2" of padding into 6" of canvas ballon


Edit-Sorry, repost of point made by Quick

[69stang]

Edit: Removed my comments, not the place

[Jim Nilsen]

When the wife rolled the S15 it was amazing she came out alive but the seatbelt kept her in her place luckily. The big problem was that the roofline came in to get her, it came in so far the way it looked if the roll hadn't moved her to the side away from it when it came in she would have hit her head on a lot of steel and glass.

I truly believe that it really depends on the kind of accident you are in the makes the most difference. It's a 50-50 chance as to whether a car without a cage will protect you. If the truck had a cage she still would have never hit it I don't believe but the roofline would have not come in to get her.

The SFI padding is hard for a reason, it has to be to have the correct amount of compression for the impact to slow your head down in relation to your brain. Read all the testing on SFI padding and it is easier to understand why it is so hard. They now make a 2 stage padding that is more user friendly with out a helmet for multi purpose cars. The standard of the years for padding in an accident whether you have a helmet or not will split off the bar and was shown in testing to have absolutely no impact resistance to slowing the motion down at all. It is all about time and distance and from what I have read in the testing I would rather hit SFI padding with no helmet than anything else and with a helmet it is going to do the job it was intended to do.

Having seen the rollover and what it did I would prefer to hit my head on the bar than to have the whole car crush me and still hit my head, if the accident you are in is that bad you are in big trouble no matter what and cages protect you at that extreme. Now small accidents are differnent and I can say that I have been knocked out by the road in a bicycle accident and the road was damn hard as a rollbar and I survived, if I had been hit by a car I would have been lots worse but you don't put cages on bikes.

DRIVE DEFENSIVELY, use your head the right way and it will protect you better than any safety equipment you can buy.

I still keep hearing my instructor at Road America telling me that I never made him feel that the car was ever out of my control and he felt safer with me than most any other student he had ever ridden with. I feel good about that and plan to be just as conservative no matter where I drive !!!