Solo II Class??

[Toadman]

I'm currently in street modified due to an aftermarket cam in my '77 Camaro, but I'm dropping in an LS1/4L60E this winter. What class will that put me in? Just wondering what cars I'll be up against.

[01badz28]

I believe that your class shouldn't change. The LS1 is okay since its a Chevy motor, and I believe transmissions are free.

[Rhino]

Do you have any suspension work done?
Do you plan on modifying the firewall to place the engine further back?

If both of those questions are no, I would assume you're still going to land in SM since it will still be a GM drivetrain.

[Lowend]

At the very least you would be CP. I think switching engine families puts you into E-mod

[mpozzi]

Check http://www.scca.org/contentpage.aspx?content=61 for the current Solo rules and your car sounds pretty cool.

Mary Pozzi

[Randy67]

You should still be able to run in SM with the LS engine. The LS engine is legal for CP as long as it is mounted in the same spot as the stock engine, i.e. no setback allowed. CP would allow you to make more suspension and engine mods, but also puts you up against (regional and national level) stripped out, slick tired monsters. Of course you could always go all out and go EM, like Ron Vermulm former CP now EM Camaro, great pictures at Nasty Z28:
http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164139
Now that's a beast that I would love just to ride in, it would be a blast to drive as well.

[01badz28]

At the very least you would be CP. I think switching engine families puts you into E-mod

Naw, both engines were badged as Chevys:


D. Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel
systems, etc.) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:
1. Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and
badged the same as the original standard or optional engine
for that model. Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the
manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps
involving makes related only at a corporate level are not
recognized as equivalents. Models produced as a joint
venture between manufacturers may utilize any engine from
any partner in the joint venture, provided that an engine from
the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that
particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with
either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor
from Chrysler or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks
manufactured as production units for sale in other countries
such as Japan or Germany.

I'm going to have to go back and look at CP, though. I was told my car wasn't eligible due to the fact the 6.2L L92 / LS3 wasn't offered in the 4th gen originally.

[Rhino]

I'm going to have to go back and look at CP, though. I was told my car wasn't eligible due to the fact the 6.2L L92 / LS3 wasn't offered in the 4th gen originally.

You made me curious about CP. The way I read the rules, I think that's correct. I'm not currently up on the differences between CP and CM. Is CP more restrictive on the drivetrain?

C. Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between
different years and models of a vehicle if (a) the item is standard
on the year/model from which it was taken, and (b) the years/
models are listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared
Classes). The updated/backdated part or the part to which
it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or
otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance.
Standard factory installation methods, locations, and configurations
are allowed. The updating and/or backdating of
engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit;
component parts of these units may not be interchanged. Cars
not listed in the Street Prepared sections of Appendix A may not
be updated/backdated until approved by the SEB and published in
the official SCCA publication.

Chevrolet/Pontiac/Buick/Oldsmobile
Camaro/Firebird (’67-’70)
Camaro/Firebird, all (’70½-’81)
Camaro/Firebird & Firehawk, NOC (’82-’92) (3rd gen)
Camaro/Firebird & SS & Firehawk & WS6, NOC (’93-’02) (4th gen)
Chevelle (’64-’67)
Chevelle (’68-’72)
Corvair Yenko Stage I, II, III (all)Lumina
Monza V8 & Skyhawk V6
Reatta
Regal V6 & V8 RWD (’80-’88)
Starfire V6 & Sunbird V6 (all)
Trans Am Turbo (’82-’92)

Lets say the LS3 came from a 5th Gen Camaro. Since the LS3/L99 is an available engine in the 5th gen it would satisfy item A.
Since the 5th Gen isn't listed on the same line of Appendix A it would not satisfy item B, making it ineligible. The other interesting thing to note is that it appears to require the transmission to be swapped along side the engine. I'll have to go back through SM again and see if I read it similarly. EDIT: Having read through SM again, it appears SP is much more restrictive to drivetrain modifications.

Of course this is assuming you're wanting to be eligible for national events or have really strict rule bookers in your area. Most people in my area are much more laid back than I'm sure the national level is. I think around here, at least for local events, they would let it slide.

[Lowend]

... nationally competitive CP/E-mod car
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=61723

[Randy67]

You made me curious about CP. The way I read the rules, I think that's correct. I'm not currently up on the differences between CP and CM. Is CP more restrictive on the drivetrain?

EDIT: Having read through SM again, it appears SP is much more restrictive to drivetrain modifications.

Of course this is assuming you're wanting to be eligible for national events or have really strict rule bookers in your area. Most people in my area are much more laid back than I'm sure the national level is. I think around here, at least for local events, they would let it slide.

SP does require the engine to be on the same line as the car (5th gens can run LS3's but not 4th gens). It is more restrictive than SM

CP engine rules are fairly open. There are things like not changing the firing order, stock crank angles and such. LS motors would be allowed in older cars that didn't have them originally, but they must have been available from the factory in a car. For example, no Gen I small blocks came with aluminum blocks, so you can't run one in CP, but you can run an aluminum big block (thanks ZL1 Camaro) or an aluminun or iron LS motor. As long as the engine to trans mounting is in the stock position, you're good. Some LS swap kits relocate the engine, which would not be allowed. Of course, I could be reading the rules wrong so always verify with others of more knowledge like the SEB (they make the rulings on stuff like this).

[Rhino]

5th gens can run LS3's but not 4th gens
....
LS motors would be allowed in older cars that didn't have them originally, but they must have been available from the factory in a car

Could you explain this a little further? If a Gen III/IV small block can be used in an older vehicle, why wouldn't a Gen IV be legal to run in a 4th Gen Camaro?
Essentially aren't we talking about a similar swap here? Does it have to do with the way the two chassis' would be classified?

[01badz28]

Could you explain this a little further? If a Gen III/IV small block can be used in an older vehicle, why wouldn't a Gen IV be legal to run in a 4th Gen Camaro?
Essentially aren't we talking about a similar swap here? Does it have to do with the way the two chassis' would be classified?

I think the first part of Randy's post was directed to ESP, which does not currently allow LS3s in 4th gens. The second part of his post was directed to CP, which does allow that type of swap (as does SM).

The way I understand swaps in ESP is that you can do it through the update / backdate rule. For example, you could take a first gen four cylinder Camaro and drop a Z/28 327 in it, so long as you changed everything else to what came in a Z/28. You couldn't drop an LS3 in it because no first gen Camaros left the factory with LS3s.

Basically ESP is more restrictive than SM, and depending on what you are trying to do, SM is usually more restrictive than CP.

The SCCA rules make little to no sense at times, so if I've gotten that part wrong, please correct me.

[Lowend]

Looking at the rule (which have changed in the last could of years) you can do engine swaps in SM as long as you keep the same company (ie Fords must stay Fords) , but you are limited to 6 liters.
The car must weigh 2500LBS or more. Subframe connectors are allowed, but not if the cross brace.
you cannot alter any suspension mounting point ie no Guldstrand mod on Camaros

[Damn True]

Looking at the rule (which have changed in the last could of years) you can do engine swaps in SM as long as you keep the same company (ie Fords must stay Fords) , but you are limited to 6 liters.
The car must weigh 2500LBS or more. Subframe connectors are allowed, but not if the cross brace.
you cannot alter any suspension mounting point ie no Guldstrand mod on Camaros

So I'm guessing that mine will wind up woefully under gunned in CP?

Not that I care about being competitive in this car, just curious.

[Randy67]

I think the first part of Randy's post was directed to ESP, which does not currently allow LS3s in 4th gens. The second part of his post was directed to CP, which does allow that type of swap (as does SM).

The way I understand swaps in ESP is that you can do it through the update / backdate rule. For example, you could take a first gen four cylinder Camaro and drop a Z/28 327 in it, so long as you changed everything else to what came in a Z/28. You couldn't drop an LS3 in it because no first gen Camaros left the factory with LS3s.

Basically ESP is more restrictive than SM, and depending on what you are trying to do, SM is usually more restrictive than CP.

The SCCA rules make little to no sense at times, so if I've gotten that part wrong, please correct me.

That is what I meant, thanks for clarifying. You are right on the ESP backdate/update. A first gen can use any engine that was put into first gens, as it is on the same line in Appendix A.

[Randy67]

So I'm guessing that mine will wind up woefully under gunned in CP?

Not that I care about being competitive in this car, just curious.

Don't worry, the CP guys welcome any cars. I've been running in CP for 3 years and am usually near the back of the pack at regionals and Nationals. Just come, run what you have and most of all, have FUN. The fun part is mandatory, running well is optional, as I know all too well.

[Lowend]

Remember, if you don't win, no one protests rule violations

[Damn True]

Remember, if you don't win, no one protests rule violations

Sweet. F-Stock it is.

[01badz28]

...but you are limited to 6 liters...

No, they did away with the 6.0L rule a couple of years ago in lieu of a minimum weight dependent on displacement:

STREET MODIFIED CATEGORY
Engine Classifications
1. Four-stroke cycle and two-stroke cycle, naturally aspirated internal
combustion engines will be classified on the basis of actual
piston displacement.
2. Turbocharged or supercharged versions of all engines will be
classified on a basis of adding 1.4L to the actual displacement.
3. Rotary Engines (Wankel): These units will be classified on the
basis of a piston displacement equivalent to 0.9 liters times the
number of rotors, plus the volume determined by the difference
between the maximum and minimum capacity of the working
chamber times the number of rotors.

Minimum Weight Calculations:
All listed weights are without driver.
FWD: 1550 lbs + 125 lbs/liter
RWD: 1800 lbs + 200 lbs/liter
AWD: 1800 lbs + 300 lbs/liter
Cars with engine located behind driver: +25 lbs/liter
Regardless of the weight formulas above, no car will be required to
weigh more than 3100 lbs.