European vs us hot rods

[79PonchoUK]

As someone from europe, surrounded by the many thousands of stripped out 'race' style cars, where everything has been removed, sound deadening, interior, heater, ac, the lot....


I can tell you one thing....



....most aren't actually used at all.

You get the hardcore 17-20 year olds who are just stripping their car out to be cool, the rest end up with an uncomfortable, deafening tin can that they cant use in winter or for any journeys over 3 miles.

I dont think PT cars are particularly over the top. If you just wnt out and out performance then I think many could save on the sound deadening a bit, possibly on the electric windows and AC (depending on your climate). But to go as far as some do here, with fixed poly carb windows, no seam sealant and 'heater delete' for the street just ruins the usability of your car.

It may be cool on paper, but that's about as far as you can enjoy it....I mean, you could go even further and sit on a balsa wood stool instead of a recaro?

[parsonsj]

Hmmm. What do I think about this? I've no direct experience with German-car hot-rodding, so I can't comment on it.

I can comment on the II Much observations though. My car was never intended to be stripped down... I always approached the car as a series of engineering problems to be solved, and found much fun and satisfaction in learning the material and solving the problems.

Included in that list was a stereo, a full interior, and air conditioning.

The car was designed for all of that from the beginning, and has had sound deadening, a full interior (including a back seat), and a stereo from the day it was first "finished". The carpeting is the most expensive I could find, it is Mercedes stuff (I have lots of respect for German engineering: see my BMW-based hood hinges). I ran out of money and time (we moved to Florida as the build was winding down) and pushed out the A/C for later. And, as originally planned, it now has A/C. And not just A/C: a full HVAC. Heating, defrost, and A/C.

I drive around all the time with my iPhone navigation with stereo and A/C blasting. The car is practically luxurious.

As far as selling, I've only gotten serious about that recently. I thought a private buyer was going to buy the car, and so I did little to market it. It's time to move on (for real), and I'm now working to do that. I am changing the car's styling (not the equipment) to make it have a broader appeal. It's a tweak, and one that many have commented on. At the price point I want to get for the car it needs marketing. Most normal folks can't afford the car (I know I couldn't afford to buy it), and so I'm trying to find the sweet spot. But again, I'm modifying styling; not the equipment list.

I'm trying to say that in summary, II Much looks stripped down. But it isn't, and never has been.

And honest: I'm thrilled people remember it in such discussions!

jp

[JEFFTATE]

Pro-Touring cars are for "touring"( taking trips/going places).
Hence refinements like A/C , sound systems , comfortable seats.

"Street Fighter" cars or track cars are stripped down.

[JayR]

The hardcore Porsche guys you mention are a tiny percentage of the Porsche community and there are far more Porsche owners that have the very latest 997 that has never seen WOT and never even had the A/C turned off much less thought of removing it to save a few pounds so to single out one tiny little faction and compare them to the majority here isn't really fair. There's way more "gold-chainer" Porsche owners than P-T guys.

Jeff and John summed it up right before me. If you want a street fighter, make an emphasis on function and only add the amenities you truly need which varies from one person to the next and if you want to make spirited drives in comfort and stop occasionally to do an autocross or track event without the aid of a trailer, you have more in common with more Porsche owners than the guys you point out and if you want to pull a trailer to any event further away than 50 miles to avoid shell-shock, then build a bare bones car for YOU.

Call me soft, but I like my fillings where they're at and don't want to lose any more hearing than I already have and I don't enjoy pulling trailers so I planned my car with a certain level of comfort for ME.

Point is, do what you want for you within your taste, style and budget.

[BRIAN]

Not really sure where I am get upset about anything??

Sometimes you just want a quick discussion not where every word you write is given that much thought. There is no attack on Pro Touring. No attack on John. No attack on Porsches. I used 911's as I have had them and no compared to building a Full Tilt Pro Touring car they aren't that expensive.

John your car is a serious car and I am not sure many would consider it cushy. You developed a car that performs first and then added the needed accys correct?? No insult meant actually it was the exact opposite.

Just curious as to who else believes we have developed into building cars with just too many unnecessary items that increase a build cost without increasing performance.

I guess I got my answer, and that is the majority want A/C and all the accys. I build cars to sell after I am done with them and sometimes you have to give the public what they want.

Thanks
Brian

[Steve1968LS2]

Not really sure where I am get upset about anything??

Sometimes you just want a quick discussion not where every word you write is given that much thought. There is no attack on Pro Touring. No attack on John. No attack on Porsches. I used 911's as I have had them and no compared to building a Full Tilt Pro Touring car they aren't that expensive.

John your car is a serious car and I am not sure many would consider it cushy. You developed a car that performs first and then added the needed accys correct?? No insult meant actually it was the exact opposite.

Just curious as to who else believes we have developed into building cars with just too many unnecessary items that increase a build cost without increasing performance.

I guess I got my answer, and that is the majority want A/C and all the accys. I build cars to sell after I am done with them and sometimes you have to give the public what they want.

Thanks
Brian

Hey..guess I am wrong back to the usual what is the backspacing for a 1969 Camaro with a 335 tire.

That comment made me think you were getting frustrated/upset at the direction of the thread.

Part of this hobby is about performance and part is about style.. you can have both so long as the style doesn't badly hurt the performance. I fail to see how my billet hood hinges have made my car any slower.

In short build what makes you happy.. :shrug:

[formula]

I fail to see how my billet hood hinges have made my car any slower.

Yours have the cutouts to make them lighter than stock, no? So at the end of the day, it was weight savings.

[JEFFTATE]

I used 911's as I have had them and no compared to building a Full Tilt Pro Touring car they aren't that expensive.

Just curious as to who else believes we have developed into building cars with just too many unnecessary items that increase a build cost without increasing performance.

Thanks
Brian

All pro-touring cars are not that expensive.
It doesn't cost more than a Porsche 911 to improve an old musclecar's brakes , suspension , and add a/c to it.
The super expensive cars you are referring to are the high-dollar ones that are really few and far between.
Most of the pro-touring cars out there are not that expensive.

[T_Raven]

Pro-Touring cars are for "touring"( taking trips/going places).
Hence refinements like A/C , sound systems , comfortable seats.

"Street Fighter" cars or track cars are stripped down.

Exactly! If it's not something I can hop in and drive across the country at a moment's notice, in comfort, it's not a "pro-touring" car. My definition of building a protouring car would be taking an older car and improving every aspect of it. Handling, acceleration, braking, looks, comfort, and usually even fuel economy.

I'll take performance over looks any day but this site isn't for people who want to race and don't care about looks or comfort.

[parsonsj]

I build cars to sell after I am done with them and sometimes you have to give the public what they want.

Right. That's what I didn't do -- styling wise. I'm correcting that now, and it hopefully help its auction price. We'll see...

jp

[compos mentis]

Right. That's what I didn't do -- styling wise. I'm correcting that now...
jp

Please be gentle...

lol

[Restomod]

I am upset about the direction of a lot of threads here of late. There is a LOT of GM superiority here and Japanese/European car bashing posts coming more often and help you if you mention you dig something other than a big 3 car. I have had a lot of brands and I think a one time or anouther they are ALL JUNK!!

[Steve1968LS2]

I am upset about the direction of a lot of threads here of late. There is a LOT of GM superiority here and Japanese/European car bashing posts coming more often and help you if you mention you dig something other than a big 3 car. I have had a lot of brands and I think a one time or anouther they are ALL JUNK!!

Who's bashing?

[65-fastback]

1st: this is NOT a hotrod forum, but a pro touring forum, hotrod are a lot older (1920-1930-1940)
2nd: you decribe "all power, no luxury" that is caled a Muscle car
3rd: pro touring is like making a usa classic car handle like a new porsche, and better in performance

and yes, my friend does not dare to race me with his ferrari 355.

BTW, I live in The Netherlands (Amsterdam) next to Germany.

[tonykim]

The thing with the Europeans is that they in general have different economics than we do. The cost of fuel and the cost of space seems to have driven a mindset that efficiency and size is favored over simplicity. Thus to make power it often takes unique and complex solutions to do it in the small package space allowed. Owning an E46 BMW and having worked as an engineer in the automotive industry I've seen it time and time again. The European friends I've made through Opel forums really want to maximize their performance dollar by also sucking the weight out of their cars. An 1800 lb car with 180 hp looks similar to a 300 hp Fox mustang weighing 3200 lbs. But it does this while making 30-35 mpg where fuel is $8-10 a gallon today.

[79PonchoUK]

The thing with the Europeans is that they in general have different economics than we do. The cost of fuel and the cost of space seems to have driven a mindset that efficiency and size is favored over simplicity. Thus to make power it often takes unique and complex solutions to do it in the small package space allowed.

It's true, people regularly say to me "my car makes the same power as yours but with half the engine size"

I can't help but say "so what, your engine weighs more than mine with the 2 turbos, 2 intercoolers and 4 miles of wiring....and takes 12 seconds of lag to make that power"

They still don't understand....theirs is still a better engine. lol

It's all about bhp/litre here, absolutely clueless really.....bhp/litre is THE most insignificant engine statistic this side of bhp/c02. lol. bhp/kg is a different story. Use that and you see just how amazing the LS engines are.

[79PonchoUK]

Incidentally, I think in our climate, a heater is much more of a safety necessity than a fog light....but it's perfectly legal to remove it. All cars since '79 HAVE to have a fog light though. Strange.

[vanzuuk1]

Word Steve....

[elacruze]

Amazing that the argument about definition continues to burn so bright.

How can you apply the term 'Touring' to something that is targeted so specifically at performance Uber Alles?

Driving a stripped hot rod 911 with no A/C or radio on the street is either Masochism or Egotism unless you're street racing for money...a recipe for legal disaster...Street racing is illegal, right?
'Streetfighter' is the term the motorcycle world applies to that genre on two wheels.

I'll keep my soundproofing and A/C so I can stay in the car long enough to need a fill-up.

`The battle for the world is the battle for definitions.` - Thomas Szasz

[mikedc]

IMHO the reasons for all these differences are self-evident when you look at the conditions of the two lands and the two types of cars.



-- Europe = gas (read: curb weight) is expensive. In America it's cheap.



-- European cars didn't have their styling and yearly changes as so much of the car's whole identity the way that the US models did. So there is less of a tendency to celebrate the quirks of bodystyles.



-- Europe has less suburban territory and more windy & rural roads to let a car out to play. This promotes a greater concern for performance and doesn't give you as much time to get sick of the annoyances in the car.

But in America today we live in a sea of suburban sprawl. That means there is little opportunity to corner-carve, and lots of opportunity to sit idling/creeping in your car while getting tired of its minor annoyances & wishing for better creature comforts.



-- I think some European cars tended to be a bit more optioned from the factory. So for their enthusiasts to keep options is to leave it stock, and leaving it stock is not what makes people become real enthusiasts. The opposite is true for the low-optioned American cars.

I'm saying that people are amused by something different than stock on both continents. But the specifications of "stock" ARE different on the two different continents. At least a little.



-- And one last thing: You don't need air conditioning when you're living in a country that remains butt-cold during a much bigger portion of the year than in much of the USA.