European vs us hot rods

[BRIAN]

I have gotten into early Porsche 911's and have seen an opposite trend when it comes to what they call a Hot Rod and how US cars are built.



I don't want to get into the Porsche guys are all rich dic heads deal as we are now at a point where the average Pro Touring car costs more to build than a 911. Yes we are the gold chain guys.

Anyway the first thing they do is strip the car to a bare bones Hot Rod. I mean every last ounce that can be thrown out is. Sound deadening, a/c etc, etc.

It just seams we do the exact opposite. Do you really need billet hood hinges? Have to have 200lbs in sound deadening? Try and sell a Pro Tour car without A/C.

The point I am making are the cars are about performance first and then looks. On the other hand we have now gotten to the point of building bloated accessory laden cars that contradict the idea of Pro Touring.

I love bare bones cars that shake, make noise and are a blast to drive. Problem is you get stuck with it if you want a new project.

What has happened to American Hot Rods? Why have we gotten so soft???? Mirrored hood undersides anyone???

[formula]

I mean, it kinda sounds to me like that's a pretty hardcore segment. Seems like they'd be pretty well in the same boat as we would if they tried to sell a stripped-out, track-ready 911 to anyone but like-minded enthusiasts.

I can't speak for every car nut out there, but my family has a 993 (the last air cooled 911 for those who don't speak porsche-ese) and my bird. The bird has no a/c, rolldown windows, hardtop, single-speed windshield wipers...the 911 is a convertible with power everything. I like 'em both just the way they are--they're both fast and both fun as hell to drive.

I know that a LOT of guys I've seen with really hardcore 911s will also have a "normal" 911 they drive on a regular basis, too. Maybe they only post on forums about their project cars?

Regardless, in my experience, forums are a terrible way to accurately determine the popularity of a trend. I went to the charlotte auto fair this weekend and there were, tops, 3-5 cars (out of something like 2,000) that could really be called "pro-touring" or "g-machines". Every automotive niche these days has a forum dedicated to it, and over time, immersing yourself in that atmosphere may lead you to believe it's extremely common in the real world. I've found that to generally not be the case.

[Shiro666]

I think that the types of "Hot Rods" on this site run the gamut.

Some cars are more "GT" and some are more race. I can't think of any examples of cars on this site that are "accessory laden". Usually the consensus around here is against the street rodification of Camaro's. The reason people replace the hood hinges with billet is because the stock ones stink.

No matter how manly you are, riding in a car that drones on the highway and can bake cookies in the footwell is unplesant for more than a couple of hours.

I don't think you will confuse any of the cars on this site with "pimp my ride" contestants. Has anyone done a fishtank in a PT car yet?

[derekf]

...as we are now at a point where the average Pro Touring car costs more to build than a 911.

I would STRONGLY disagree with that statement. I've always wanted a 911, since I was a teenager. I turn 40 next month, and have been thinking that it's time to go ahead and get one, but over the past couple of days I've been looking at the prices for both stock replacement and even used parts, and I think I cannot afford to maintain a 911, much less rebuild it properly.

On the other hand, there's a thread around here somewhere where a huge number of people self-identify as having less than 30k in their PT car. (here's the thread). Personally, I'll likely have less than 15k in mine.

Anyway the first thing they do is strip the car to a bare bones Hot Rod. I mean every last ounce that can be thrown out is. Sound deadening, a/c etc, etc.

Yes, I'd seen that, but it seems to be mainly the earlier ones that they CAN get down to ~2000lbs and put the peaky smaller engines in. Probably not the route I'd go down if I had a 911, but then again, my El Camino body and frame will weigh quite a bit more than that regardless of what weight-saving processes I go through.

It just seams we do the exact opposite. Do you really need billet hood hinges? Have to have 200lbs in sound deadening? Try and sell a Pro Tour car without A/C.

Do I need billet hood hinges? No, nor do I want them.

I intend to sell my current driver the day my PT car is driveable. AC is required, because we have a lot of summer here. Similarly, I will have a stereo and I will likely have some sort of sound deadening... because I will drive my car on a daily basis, sometimes with passengers.

What you're describing for the ultra-light 911 folks would seem to be equivalent to the "street-fighter" segment here. I reckon that's a subset of both PT and the 911 folks.

The point I am making are the cars are about performance first and then looks. On the other hand we have now gotten to the point of building bloated accessory laden cars that contradict the idea of Pro Touring.

I'm of a mind that once looks outweigh performance - in the way you're describing - then that's not PT, that's (as described in many eBay ads) "Protour style".

On the other hand, if you come across an inexpensive 60s/70s/early 80s 911 coupe that doesn't need much rust repair and has good mechanicals, I could try to see it from the other side

[tones2SS]

I'd take a pro-tour over a Porsche ANY DAY of the week!! (And I like Porsche's!!!) But, you just cannot beat driving an "old school" car on the street with street manners and take it to the track and tear it up!!

[Steve1968LS2]

Porsche parts make Pro-Touring parts look downright cheap and affordable.

And when did Pro-Touring become synonymis with building a rat rod racecar?

Sounds more like your 911 segment is like our Streetfighter segment.

[Restomod]

WOW only 5 posts. Porsche parts are $$$ ?!?!?! NAWWW dont even look at Ferrari much less Lamborghini!! Well heres mine.........let the Porsche bashing begin......

[Memphis]

Whoa CGT kit gone err interesting

[speedshftr]

when i was younger a slope nose 930 or 911 was all i wanted/then i got a little older and had some car money i forgot all about the 911 and bought viper after viper/in retrospect i still like the 911 variations but the rumbly american hot rods always rule for me.i will admit though i used to drool over all the variations available years ago in the dupont registry.those kremer and dp motorsports/

[formula]

WOW only 5 posts. Porsche parts are $$$ ?!?!?! NAWWW dont even look at Ferrari much less Lamborghini!! Well heres mine.........let the Porsche bashing begin......

I don't think anybody around here is bashing porsche...I, for one, think they're amazing cars but saying that porsche parts are cheap compared to ferrari and lamborghini is kind of a crazy way to look at it. They're still insane-o expensive-60 bucks for a window switch? 150 for a hood strut? Plus I just ran into the dreaded SAI clog on obd2 993s--if I lived in an inspection state, I'd be looking at a complete top-end rebuild, and most porsche techs charge at least 100 an hour.

Of course, if you know how to do it yourself, you can save a lot--but that's just as true on any car.

[BRIAN]

I think you are missing my point here.

If you look at Euro so called hot rods they are more concerned with performance rather than having the latest look. Parts are bought to make the car perform better not shine.

Where is on here every other question is about how a part will look on their car. The site used to have a lot of performance builds but that was a couple years ago. Now it is more about making a car look nice.

Not sure why stripping a car of all it's excess weight and building a well engineered car would be a rat rod? Actually it is proving my point as why is that considered a rat??

Look at 2 Much. He can't sell that car if he wanted to and that is said with no insult meant at all. It is a purpose built killer ride with looks that come from it's no nonsense stripped down look. If he added some chrome and billet and maybe a 500lb stereo it would sell overnight.

I guess I always though the guys on here were into building killer drivers cars and not show machines? I used the 911 as an example as they have a huge race and street following.

As far as cost....prices are getting very close. Hey..guess I am wrong back to the usual what is the backspacing for a 1969 Camaro with a 335 tire.

[Restomod]

I don't think anybody around here is bashing porsche...

They will get around to it..............

[Steve1968LS2]

WOW only 5 posts. Porsche parts are $$$ ?!?!?! NAWWW dont even look at Ferrari much less Lamborghini!! Well heres mine.........let the Porsche bashing begin......

I love Porsches, but BOS has done quite a few and the replacement parts, especially for the classics, are crazy expensive.

[Steve1968LS2]

I think you are missing my point here.

If you look at Euro so called hot rods they are more concerned with performance rather than having the latest look. Parts are bought to make the car perform better not shine.

Where is on here every other question is about how a part will look on their car. The site used to have a lot of performance builds but that was a couple years ago. Now it is more about making a car look nice.

Not sure why stripping a car of all it's excess weight and building a well engineered car would be a rat rod? Actually it is proving my point as why is that considered a rat??

Look at 2 Much. He can't sell that car if he wanted to and that is said with no insult meant at all. It is a purpose built killer ride with looks that come from it's no nonsense stripped down look. If he added some chrome and billet and maybe a 500lb stereo it would sell overnight.

I guess I always though the guys on here were into building killer drivers cars and not show machines? I used the 911 as an example as they have a huge race and street following.

As far as cost....prices are getting very close. Hey..guess I am wrong back to the usual what is the backspacing for a 1969 Camaro with a 335 tire.

I don't know why you can't or shouldn't do both... My car is pretty nice and seems to not be hurting in the performance department.

And you seem to be upset that everyone isn't agreeing with you 100%.. it's called a discussion.

I wouldn't call II Much stripped down.. it has a stereo.. and AC.. and a full interior. What "hurt" that car was the color and the "race look".. sometimes people make the mistake of judging the book by its cover and that's a shame in this case.

[compos mentis]

Perhaps more people are concerned with looks and comfort because they've seen many people have to sell cars they never thought they'd have to sell. So maybe more now are done with an eye on resale than in the past. Others are just concerned with looks and I call that segment faux-touring. Hey, its their money.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

took the words right out of my mouth..

Sounds more like your 911 segment is like our Streetfighter segment.

and i can tell you this..

not ALL pt cars are running around with high dollar audios and damn streetrod interiors.. there are nice levels of where folks are in their "luxury" status in their builds..

like for me..

a semi stripped down car, no stereo, no Ac.. IS luxury..

[CarlC]

...immersing yourself in that atmosphere may lead you to believe it's extremely common in the real world. I've found that to generally not be the case.

I fully agree.

[Rhino]

I think it's as simple as what pro-touring means to you. To someone it's a stripped street fighter, to others it's a corner burner with full amenities.
I feel the "touring" influences the most. Once my car is finished, it had better be fast, but also comfortable enough to drive to and from the destination. If that means a little sound deadening and an A/C so be it.

[Eric Howell]

I think it's as simple as what pro-touring means to you. To someone it's a stripped street fighter, to others it's a corner burner with full amenities.
I feel the "touring" influences the most. Once my car is finished, it had better be fast, but also comfortable enough to drive to and from the destination. If that means a little sound deadening and an A/C so be it.

I agree 100%.

What is wrong with building what you like rather then following some set of rules that's set in stone?

Here is a hot rod forum, they don't like billet either.
http://www.killbillet.com/

*edit*
(I meant hot rods are different then PT, not trying to be an ass)

[Steve Chryssos]

I just spent back to back weekends at Lime Rock and Watkins Glen surrounded by vintage race cars, so I'm feeling quite racey. My first instinct is to agree with you, but I am reminded of lessons learned from Run Thru The Hills and The Motor State Challenge.

At our events, I have learned time and again that the level of amenities does not define the car's performance. And I'm not talking gut instinct here. Actual data has proven that some refined, full dress cars are just as competitive as the stripped down streetfighters. A few years ago, I went into these events with the same preconceived notion: That the refined cars will get their asses handed to them by the streetfighters.

Basic physics still applies: Lighter cars will beat heavier cars, but we're talking about hot rods here. So there is always a wide range of variables. In the end, results have shown that car preparation and driver skill can and will overcome differences in build style.

The list of parts is less relevant. The slow cars are the ones that are not built right and/or driven poorly. The worst cars are conspicuous: Poppin', fartin' and bangin' from bad engine tune; Engine and drivetrain failures; frequent off course excursions; etc. Cars with inexperienced drivers and/or bad chassis setups are visibly slower. We've seen fast cars that look ISCA show circuit ready and slow cars that look SCCA ready.

Message boards do not tell the tale.