Pedal Talk

[cheapthrillz]

I pulled the dash the rest of the way out yesterday, so I'm going to reinstall the stock pedal support and see EXACTLY what I have to work with. Will keep you all updated and post some pictures...



JP, should I disassociate the clutch from the brake pivot and run Grade 8 bolts or something?

[parsonsj]

JC, I'd sure take a look at the clutch, though you will never ever in your whole life put as many miles on that car that wore it to begin with. If you mean to use grade 8 bolts as a pivot, that's better than nothing. I'd definitely look into a bushing setup for that.

jp

[AButler]

John
if doing a setup similar to Paytons how far can you offset the balance bar before causing issues. It appears the tilton setup is 4.75" long and that is a whole lot of horizonal parts to package between the pedals. So my main idea is could I mount it at the edge of the shell that they supply to weld in. There by moving it a good distance towards the gas pedal

[Payton King]

The balance bar sleve needs to be centered on the brake pedal along with have the correct alignment on the masters...as in the rods need to push as straight as possible into the masters. we had to modify the pedals on my set up.

You would be miles ahead of the game to bite the bullet and buy a Tilton pedal assembly, modify your fire wall and pedal to make it fit.

[Damn True]

What did you do to the pedals themselves?

[parsonsj]

Payton,

The masters need to line up with the balance bar sleeve. If you offset the sleeve, you also need to offset the masters. In order to gain clutch pedal arm clearance, that's what I think might work: move the balance bar and brake master cylinders towards the throttle.

jp

[cheapthrillz]

Payton,

The masters need to line up with the balance bar sleeve. If you offset the sleeve, you also need to offset the masters. In order to gain clutch pedal arm clearance, that's what I think might work: move the balance bar and brake master cylinders towards the throttle.

jp

JP, I think the best solution I can come up with would be to get the remote balance bar from Payton and mount it on the engine side of the firewall with a bracket to hold it and the MC's up. Then run the stock pushrod to the balance bar through the firewall. Repair and retain the stock support and pedals. That's the best I can do for now and have it work properly without too much fab work. Maybe later I can incorporate it into the cage...

[cheapthrillz]

I'm going to get the balance bar from Payton and do as I stated in my last post unless anybody has any reason for me not to do it.....

[parsonsj]

JC,

I think that's a great solution. Having that part in your hands will allow you to work out something trick.

Be sure and post pics.

jp

[Payton King]

When we did mine. We left the brake pedal alone (stock configuration) and put the balance tube as close to the top as we could. This still only netted a 6:1 ratio. The stock brace that holds the pedals was modified where it hits the fire wall for the 2 masters and I redrilled the holes on the firewall.

We had to modify the clutch pedal to clear the balance bar set-up as you can see in the above post with the picture. By moving it out and around we had to modify the mount for the stock GM clutch master.

Anyway big pain in the a$$, in hindsight, I would have bought the Tilton brake and clutch pedal assembly. Modified my firewall and the tilton pedals to get around the steering column.

[formula]

When we did mine. We left the brake pedal alone (stock configuration) and put the balance tube as close to the top as we could. This still only netted a 6:1 ratio. The stock brace that holds the pedals was modified where it hits the fire wall for the 2 masters and I redrilled the holes on the firewall.

We had to modify the clutch pedal to clear the balance bar set-up as you can see in the above post with the picture. By moving it out and around we had to modify the mount for the stock GM clutch master.

Anyway big pain in the a$$, in hindsight, I would have bought the Tilton brake and clutch pedal assembly. Modified my firewall and the tilton pedals to get around the steering column.

You say only 6:1--my understanding was that was about right-ish for a manual setup? Should we be aiming higher on JC's car? Stock on his car is right around 6.0-6.1:1...

[parsonsj]

6:1 is what is recommeded by Wilwood and Tilton.

Anyway big pain in the a$$, in hindsight, I would have bought the Tilton brake and clutch pedal assembly. Modified my firewall and the tilton pedals to get around the steering column.

I think that would have even more work, especially if you wanted good ergonomics. I know this because I tried to do that, and I had custom (read: flat) firewall and floor surfaces. It is no trivial matter to get the brake and steering column in proper alignment, especially with a stock column. In the end, I remain convinced that the Tilton remote pedal setup adapted to factory pedals is the best option for our cars.

jp

ps: I have some Wilwood pedals lying arond if anybody wants to mess with them.

[formula]

6:1 is what is recommeded by Wilwood and Tilton.

I think that would have even more work, especially if you wanted good ergonomics. I know this because I tried to do that, and I had custom (read: flat) firewall and floor surfaces. It is no trivial matter to get the brake and steering column in proper alignment, especially with a stock column. In the end, I remain convinced that the Tilton remote pedal setup adapted to factory pedals is the best option for our cars.

jp

ps: I have some Wilwood pedals lying arond if anybody wants to mess with them.

How much ya want for the pedals, jp?

[cheapthrillz]

You say only 6:1--my understanding was that was about right-ish for a manual setup? Should we be aiming higher on JC's car? Stock on his car is right around 6.0-6.1:1...

Stock on mine is about 6.5:1 if I remember correctly. That just means less pedal effort (more torque) but more pedal stroke...

[The WidowMaker]

i guess i still dont understand why its that big of a deal to offset the pedals. with a 2" diameter steering column, 1/4" clearance btwn the pedal arm and column, and a 1/2" thick pedal arm, youre only 1.5" off from stock. if you widen the pedal to make it more like stock (ive got size 15's, so i like wide pedals anyways), most of that can be made up.

what i dont like is the setup posted that split the clutch and brake around the column. for my application, that would put the brake and gas too close together.

im wondering if wilwood would ever make a pedal that swings to the right like a stock pedal arm. it would be worth a call to see if they have anything in the works........

btw, just throwing out ideas since i dont acutally have the parts in hand to see how they would work.

Tim

[The WidowMaker]

pm sent on pedals

[Payton King]

Here is a real good calculator that Ron Derrad showed me

http://www.jakelatham.com/radical/in...culators.shtml

Ron and I had conversation back and forth for months on braking systems. At the time my pedal ratio was 5.4:1 and I could barely get my car to stop.

I modified mine to 6:1 and would have gone higher if I could. With my current ratio I sized my masters to 5/8's on front and 3/4 on rear. This is at the edge of being too small, but I was trying to get my pedal effort down and my pressure at the caliper up. With the above I am getting 1200 psi on the front and 1100 psi on the rear with a very hard push...(100lbs I am guessing) with the bar centered. I am guessing my car weighs 3400 lbs and I have 6/4 piston Wilwoods with 13 inch rotors. I am running a BP-10 pad and the cf .40 cold.

Now remember that when you push the pedal 100 lbs that force is split between the two masters. 50 lbs each. Move the balance bar and it maybe you get 70lbs on one and 30 lbs on the other.

So what does all this rambling mean and where am I going? I would like to have a little larger masters which would require more pedal ratio...but I am at the max with my system. I tried a set of race pads with good cold bite. Wilwood "B" pads. The cf is .49 cold. Huge difference in braking, but too agressive for everyday street use.

Master sizing, pedal ratio and piston area are all big parts to getting your braking system right. Heavy cars are going to take a lot of leg pressure to stop. Use the calculator at the top of this post and spend some time to science out your system. By using the remote set-up you should be able to change the ratio just by drilling new holes in the brake pedal, which will make it easier.

[formula]

wow! that calculator is absolutely golden!

[cheapthrillz]

Spoke with Steve Wilkes at MustangSteve.com and his ball bearing kit will fit my car, so I will order that today and go ahead and get it on the way so that I will have everything needed to fab the bracket for the balance bar.

[cheapthrillz]

Ordered the Ball bearing kit this past week. Waiting on it to come in.

Picked up the remote balance bar from Payton today after going to the Charlotte Auto Fair (50th anniversary for Galaxie). I want to give a shout out to Payton. Great guy and I appreciate the deal!

I will keep you guys updated in the next few steps, but then it will probably be a while before I get the MCs because I haven't decided on the brake setup yet.