Upgrade or wait?

[79-TA]

On the first weekend of August, I'll be running my fox body in a NASA HPDE. Because of this, I was hoping to upgrade my front brakes (Hawk HPS pads, Power Slot rotors, and steel braided brakelines) but to my dismay, my current brakes still have quite a bit of life left in them. It seems wasteful to take them off prematurely. The car and its current brakes are bone stock.

I was hoping some of you could weigh in on whether or not the stock brakes would (safely) handle the 30 minute lapping sessions.

Other details: The car will weigh 3300 pounds with me in it. If and when an instructor rides along it will weigh that much more.

The track is the road course-oval combination or "roval" at Fontana:

https://www.nasaproracing.com/event/954



So, I have 3 basic options:
- leave the car as it is
- upgrade and dump the current parts
- upgrade and then put the current parts back on after the track day . . . assuming I get around to downgrading my car . . .

[gort69]

You should be happy that your current brakes are in good shape - not sad. Why not buy the extra set, and have a track set and a street set?

[79-TA]

You should be happy that your current brakes are in good shape - not sad. Why not buy the extra set, and have a track set and a street set?

That's the option I've been leaning towards. I just have to make sure I actually get around to putting the old stuff on again after the trackday.

[Twentyover]

Dead stock brakes at Fontana. You want to save $50-75 bucks using the existing stock pads. Is my understanding correct?

Suggest you get a set of pads that are designed to work hot- which your factory pads aren't- or turn 5 and the 170 degree hairpin may prove problematic after the second lap.

In addition, I think the 'stock' pads will frag after a while. Ref https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=57818.

Get a pad that works good hot. You won't forget to change back when the car goes back to the street

[79-TA]

I've been keeping an eye on that thread.

Now how about rotors?

[NOT A TA]

I started that brake thread to get people thinking, talking about what you really need for track use. Also to get people thinking about doing brakes before buying wheels with custom backspacing. Now when I finally get better brakes for my car I'll most likely have to buy new wheels because the changes in brakes will change the position of the wheel in the wheelwell.

It sounds like this will be your first track event. NASA group 1 has an instructor in car until you move up to group 2. Here on the east coast, unless you have previous track experience it is unlikely that they will move you up till you've had several days in group 1. The instructor will probably have headsets for both of you so they can teach you "the line" on the track. They'll tell you when to turn, brake, apply throttle etc.

You didn't mention whether you were running one day or two. If you haven't been on track before and if you're only running one day the stock setup would probably be fine. The first couple sessions you'll be getting used to the flow of the track going slow and so you won't be tearing up the brakes. Trying to go out and drive like the cops are chasing you won't help you learn anything and the instructor will be upset. These guys/gals put their lives in your hands for a discount on their entry fees so if you scare them they'll let you know! In the beginning the car is usually better than the driver so one day you'd probably be fine.No matter what you do with the brake pads and rotors CHANGE ALL OF THE BRAKE FLUID BEFORE YOUR TRACK DAY!

It sounds like you were going to upgrade the brakes for track use anyway so if the money's not an issue I'd just do it! Keep the stock stuff for regular street use and swap out for track days. You're going to take the brakes apart for inspection after a track event anyway. RIGHT!!! It sounds like Twentyover has been to Fontana, and knows already that you should upgrade if you're going for more than a day.

I'm going to switch to dedicated rotors and pads for track use and see how that works. Adding the roll cage, fire systems etc added about 300 lbs to my car, luckily I got moved up to run solo so that will help the brakes by getting rid of a 200 lb passenger. I need to put my car on a diet! I just put my car back together last night with stock AC Delco pads and am going to order some track pads and a new set of rotors. Track setups on the street can be scary because the pads don't work well cold.

Good luck! You're going to have a lot of fun!!!

[79-TA]

Thanks everyone. Yes, I'll be running both Saturday and Sunday and it will be in HPDE 1. I'm calling Summit now.

[JEM]

Do you intend to keep the car bone-stock?

If not...the standard advice with a Fox is to get at least to something comparable to the Motorsport M2300-K kit with the old Cobra/Z51-type PBR calipers and SN95 spindles and 5-lug spindles and axles and the 11.65in SN95 Cobra rear discs, but that would also mean new wheels, etc. for you. If you want to go down that road the classifieds at corner-carvers or the Corral can be a good place to look too. There's some better stuff out there, but you'd have to expect to spread the wallet further as well.

The stock Fox brakes are adequate as learner material but that's about as far as they go. Hawk HPS pads are what I run as street pads in a lot of the cars around here, they should be okay to learn with, they're not a real track pad. I like the Performance Friction 90 as a 9/10ths track pad but it's old and there may be comparable/better stuff out there now.

Bleed the brakes out fully with a good DOT 4 or DOT 5.1 fluid (remember to stay away from the silicone DOT 5), listen to your instructor, be safe and have fun.

[ADaughen]

I agree with JEM, you want something better than HPS.

I'm running the HPS and PowerSlot combo on my daily driver. They're leaps and bounds better than OEM. They are just not something I'd want to do more than the 48 second auto-x in at a time. I still get some brake fade after a hot and heavy run through the cones.


You may want to look into Hawk's HP Plus pads for a little more insurance.

[79-TA]

follow up:

Due to a crazy work schedule and family vacation I was crazy busy right up until the track day today. That and no wheel bearings meant no brake change. The stock brakes faired ok, given the length of the sessions (< 20 min) and more importantly, the beginner pace.

I did experience some fade when pushing. Most notably, on only the 3rd lap of the day the brakes were quite mushy going into turn 3. It was bad enough that I considered the run-off area, but early braking meant the car still had just enough time to get slowed down in that instance.


So after today's sessions finished, I swapped everything except the steel braided brake lines.

I'd have done this Friday, but I was unable to find all of the wheel bearings and seals I needed for the new rotors (parts buying/ordering oversight!!!)

I just now got back from breaking them in a bit and everything should be good to go for tomorrow.

[ADaughen]

I'm glad to hear your car survived. Did you still decide go with the Hawk HPS pads? Any plans on going back and doing another few laps?

[Twentyover]

............... Any plans on going back and doing another few laps?

.................I just now got back from breaking them in a bit and everything should be good to go for tomorrow.

Think he already answered you

[ADaughen]

Think he already answered you

I totally missed that sentence. :p

[79-TA]

Ok, update number 2.

Yea, I went with the HPS pads. By the time you suggested the more aggressive pads, I had the HPS's ordered. These will see street use, so I'm happy with them. I absolutely loved the improvement. The brakes were the best thing about the entire car today.




I started off the day by braking even earlier given that I had new brakes and then increased braking force. After the second lap it was clear the brakes were solid and I could start going deeper and deeper. This new confidence made the 4 hard braking zones a ton of fun. As a result of more confidence, not having to baby the brakes, and just plain better equipment, I was going in waaay deeper even in the first session. I continued to ride them as hard as I dared all day long and had no signs of fade or really bad fried pad smells.


I don't mean to hi jack my own thread by turning it into a trackday recollection, but by the 3rd session of the 1st day the car was way down on power and the rpms just didn't want to climb in the 3k-4.5k range (right in the middle of the freaking powerband for a stock 5.0) Even with a better (than the car passing me) exit, I couldn't pull on anything in a straight line other than an E30, a 914, and maybe a couple of other cars. This made point by's the order of the day. So with no real power and decent, but slightly (or maybe more than slightly) subpar handling, the brakes were the most fun part of the car today.


I don't know what the engine problem is yet. I'll now go about checking my coil wire, plug wires, fuel pump, fuel filter, and catalytic converters (all 4 of them.) The air filter wasn't plugged. This isn't an engine diagnostic thread now; I'm just pointing out that the brakes really made my day, especially in light of other issues . . . now I'll problem go make an engine trouble shooting thread in an appropriate section.



and yea, track day

[NOT A TA]

Thanks for the update. Good to hear you had fun!