Nose heavy car, what to do?

[Yenko boy]

I have a 69 camaro thats being restored. I have had the stock subframe redone with poly bushings new springs shocks, Z-28 steering box baer brakes, GW Arms ect,ect. And I have a brand new Parts for my alum headed Big block engine. Im feeling that this combo is gonna make my car very nose heavy. Im gonna auto x the car and take it down the strip every once in a while for fun so I want max perf while being streetable. I have looked at aftermarket frames but I keep hearing they might not be worth the extra money even tho I hear they can drop 200pounds off the front of my car compared to the stock frame so any oppions on what I should do? THx.

Anthony

[Tom Welch]

I have dificulty believing that one could reduce the front end weight by 200 pounds with an aftermarket subframe. The stock subframe for my 67 Firebird weighs less that 200 pounds. Where did the statistic for saving 200 lbs come from? I would be interested in learning more. It will be heavy but I bet that you could do quite well if you take your time and research front end design and geometry. Give Guldstrand a call and talk to Bobby.

[ProdigyCustoms]

It is true Tom, but it is the total lose of the complete sterring and suspended subframe. The majority of the weight loss is in the steering. Eliminating the steering box, drag link, idler arm and tie rods, replaced with a aluminum rack is a huge win. Combined with less lighter material of the subframe construction and tubular arms, it is easily 200 LBs lighter with Wayne Due or Chris Alstons frame. I have a car at the shop with a Martz subframe and did not weight it, but it even has to be more then 200 LBs lighter as it uses lightweight Mustang 2 stuff on 2 X 3 rails.

[JohnUlaszek]

Just to put things in perspective, a bare cast iron small block weighs 197lbs. Does an aftermarket frame and arms take out a cast iron block worth of weight?

Prodigy, it would be cool if you could weigh that Wayne Due package to see where it weighs in minus brakes compared to a loaded out stock subframe minus brakes.

Even better, if we could start a list of common suspensions and component weights and put that in a faq or a sticky?

Unlike the sometimes esoteric benefits of various suspension configurations, weight, we can quantify without question.

Weight savings suggestions,
600 series steering gear, saves six lbs
Canton accessory drive with short pump and alternator weighs about 25 lbs total on a SB, should be a good savings on a big block.
Glass hood and bumper

[gwbutch]

A bare stock 1st gen subframe only weighs 105 pounds. So, weight will need to be removed from a lot of places to loose 200 pounds.

[David Pozzi]

I posted this before but maybe you guys have not seen it:

SECOND GEN CAMARO SUBFRAME WEIGHT additon list
Bare sub 110
knuckle assys 92
springs 22
A arms - upper 20
A arms - lower 22
Shocks 6
Ctr link and tie rods 17
Trans Crossmember 10
Sub total 299

PS box, hoses, pump 44
TOTAL 343
=============================================
SUBFRAME WEIGHT additon list
Bare sub 110
knuckle assys 92
springs 22
A arms - upper 20
A arms - lower 22
Shocks 6
Ctr link and tie rods 17
Trans Crossmember 10
Sub total 299

man steering box 16.5
TOTAL 315.5

A ps box with pitman, plus pump is 44 lbs, plus the tie rod ends and center link is17 lbs, that totals 61 lbs.
A manual box with pitman is 16 lbs plus the linkage at 17 adds up to 33 lbs.

Anyone have a weight for a rack complete with arms and tie rod ends?
I have no doubts some weight can be reduced, but am concerned about torsional rigidity, brake capacity, and strength.

[Salt Racer]

I have weight of Mustang R&P, which is what many aftermarket subframes use. The number maybe somewhat irrelevant since it's really too wide for stock pickup point locations. The R&P is from AGR.

With two tie rods, castle nuts, and no fittings, the assembly weighs 17.4 lbs.

I'd imagine most R&P weigh 15~20 lbs, depending on width. I should have weighed JP's Woodward R&P when I had it in my office.

[Tom Welch]

Yeah, I'd like to learn still more about the weights and measures for first gen subframes and associated components. The steering rack will work for weight reduction, how strong are the various aftermarket frames in comparison to stock? I believe that if there was a way to build a monocoque front end then weight would go down and rigidity would go up, correct?

[Steve1968LS2]

Unlike the sometimes esoteric benefits of various suspension configurations, weight, we can quantify without question.

Weight savings suggestions,
600 series steering gear, saves six lbs
Canton accessory drive with short pump and alternator weighs about 25 lbs total on a SB, should be a good savings on a big block.
Glass hood and bumper

This would be great information to have.. As for the 600 gearbox I can vouch for how nice a box it is

Whats is the weight difference between a SBC (carb to pan) and a LS1? I bet it is well over a hundred pounds..

Dropping in an LS1 is a little cheaper than a complete new front subframe.. not by much though

[zman1969]

i did a front ls1 rack install from BRPHOTRODs and his states that it takes 80lbs off the front - well i weighed the Power steering gearbox, draglink, tie rods and idler arm and it only weighed like 44lbs - so how could it save 80? the rack is lighterbut you have to add the longer steering shaft inner and outer tie rods and the beefier tie rod arms on the front spindle- i bet maybe save 15lbs - I dont believe they add any more weight than they had to but maybe the ls1 will save a bunch over the 400pontiac motor that was in there. Anyone know how much a LS1 and 4L60e weighs and how much a 400/400auto weighs?

[MuscleRodz]

Move the battery to the back. That should be worth around 40 lbs, and the cheapest fix. I like the new Unisteer R&P, should be worth another 20 lbs. Aluminum radiator, 10 lbs maybe, lightweight starter, 5-10 lbs. Forged wheels will be worth a bunch too. You could shave another 30-40 lbs there. I am easily over 100 lbs.

Removing weight is like trying to find quicker lap times. For every pound you want to remove or every second you want to go quicker, the cost will increase exponentially. My guess, start around $50 per pound weight saved.


Mike

[chicane67]

Send it to a carbonfibre surgeon......??