4l60 or 4l80 manual shift trans?

[69496]

I am in the process of converting my chevelle from drag to pro-touring. I still want it to perform well on the drag strip as well as on the street and hopefully roadcourse. Like most of us the problem is money. I am trying to get into a 4l60 or 4l80 trans but after computer and everything the price gets steep. I saw a few places that sell full manual trans that does not use the computer. Would this be ok to start with as price is alot better and can I upgrade to a computer controlled or paddleshift later?

[GetMore]

No help here, but usually it is cheaper and easier to do it once and do it right.

[Steve Chryssos]

That's one option. Manual Valve Body 4L's are more common with drag racers since they are mostly concerned with WOT upshifts. Low buck pro-touring guys prefer to start out with a stock 4L80E, spend the money up front on electronics and converter, and then upgrade the trans later. It's just a shame to lose all of the electronic benefits--especially in a pro-touring car. My usual analogy is to compare a typewriter with word processing. They can both produce well written letters, but one choice blows away the other. Just because a manual valve body 4l80E makes shifts happen, doesn't necessarily make it a good option. For a pro-touring car, part throttle shifts and downshifts are just as important at WOT upshifts. This is where the electronics shine. You have the ability to quickly and easily custom calibrate pressure and shift timing to your vehicle's exact specifications as well as your exact driving preference. You also get to choose between automatic and manual operation. Conversely, every manual valve body shift is sledgehammer harsh. And if you frequently forget to downshift from 3rd or fourth gear at a light, premature wear is certain.

Electronics installation and tuning is extremely simple. Also you can sneak up on the expense:
Compushift TCU: $1095 - Mandatory
Compushift Display Tuner: $235 - Can be added later at any time
Twist Machine Shrifter: $539.00 Can be added later at any time

And since we understand that this stuff can be expensive, we honor our package price of $1655 if you buy in stages. $1095 for the TCU and harness now and $560 for display/tuner and Shrifter® paddle shifter later.

[69496]

Thanks for the response. Looks like I need to stop trying to cut corners and just do it right the first time. I haven't been in the market for a trans until now so is it worth trying to find a used 4L80 or just by one already rebuilt from who??

[LS1NOVA]

What engine do you have?
Id put that grand into a budget 5.3 or 6.0 swap and use the Gm computer to control it.

[LS1NOVA]

Missed your screen name, probably a 496 huh?

[69496]

496 big block as you figured out. I started this project so long ago I never even considered an LS motor. If I didn't have so much money tied up in my 496 I would definetly switch to an LS.

[Steve Chryssos]

This is where the conversation gets tricky. Too many sources determine transmission torque capacity with a typewriter as an R&D tool.

"450 <backspace> 550 <backspace> 650 <backspace> 750. There, that sounds good."

Others are more honest, but their transmissions are only designed with WOT upshifts in mind. We just put a Bowler 4L80E-1000 in one of our house cars--Vinnie's 68 Camaro. It has a 11.5:1, solid roller, 670 HP 496 plus a 250 shot. 496's are awesome engines. Big block torque, AND they spin like mad all the way to 7K! If you like riding a pissed off bull, a 496 rocks. This car does it all though, 10.30's on muscle and slicks, auto-x, road course, and street. Anyone who knows Vinnie agrees that he is an absolute madman. Spectators frequently shout: "Wow, he HATES that car!"

Transmission price for this worst case scenario? $7000 including a 300M input shaft, 2.74 first gear and every possible trick in the book to make it shift lightning quick and last. Conversely, a good junkyard 4L80E will handle 500 to 550 horsepower and cost about $500. The proper 10.5" billet converter with oversized lock up clutch for your application is $897.

Tell us more about your 496 and intended usage.

[69496]

That motor and intent of use in that 68 Camaro is exactly what I am going after. My 496 will have ported Edlebrock RPM heads, 11.5-1, solid roller, etc. I was shooting for between 650 and 700 horse so sounds almost identical. Oh and the bottom end was built stout enough to handle 250 shot of nitrous. Boy sounds familiar. I know it is not ideal for road race or auto cross but I wasn't building it to be the fastest at any one thing but a hell of alot of fun at anything. Suspension and brakes are mostly SC&C with AFX spindles and C6 Z51 brakes. It looks like what I need to do is save for that Bowler 4L80 setup that you guys are using in that Camaro but at 7k I will probably throw the TH400 I have in it to get it road worthy and then save my pennies. I really like your description of that 68 Camaro though, got me excited all over again to get my car done. I have about 20k left to finish the car but again at 7k for trans alone it will have to wait.

[Steve Chryssos]

No problem. Feel free to shop around. But be sure to compare hard parts and ask how quick harsh the shifts will be. Bowler's transmissions shift super quick, but never harsh. Every shift is a nice crisp "oomph!" Call Bowler as well, to get a better understanding. You can always take power out of the engine or eliminate the use of slicks and spray to lower trans load requirements for now. Less input torque and/or traction means less $$$.

If the description got you hot, watch the video. That 496 kicks ass:

[69496]

Thanks again for the input. For now the car will be on radials. I do appreciate your advice on the forums. Can you give me one more rough number? What would be the cheapest I could get into a bowler and twistmachine setup and drive it for now (hopefully without breaking) and then down the road make all the upgrades to the trans and add paddle shift etc.

[Jake's Performance]

Conversely, every manual valve body shift is sledgehammer harsh.

Steve,
I have to ask,
Have you ever driven a full manual VB equipped 4L80E?
If so who/where did the trans come from and do you know what VB setup they used?

I ask because I would very strongly disagree with this statement.
I build 4L80Es with the full manual VB's often for the drag racing and street/strip guys.
I can guarantee they don't shift harshly. I can actually make them shift Cadillac soft if someone so desired with the full manual VB, and my standard build does shift fairly mildly at part throttle.

I guess the easiest way to explain it is that even with the full manual VB, everything that would be operating with electronics is still operating, shift valves still move, accumulators still function, etc.

I can control line pressure with the full manual VB for a 4L80E, it is not fixed like the typical TH400/TH350's, etc.

Edit:
However I do agree that "I" prefer electronics. A track only auto-cross type car wouldn't matter what you use, you could go either way.
For a street ride, the electronics are a pleasure to work with.

An OD trans has one extra detent, and it just seems like a bunch of motion to go from park to low ratcheting a shifter. Moreso that a 3 speed auto.

[Steve Chryssos]

Only one. It was harsh. I'm sorry to generalize. I didn't know it could be tuned. So is an M.V.B. 4L80E easy to convert back to full electronic down the line?

[Jake's Performance]

Most builders are using the TransGo Stick Shift kit to build the 4L80E full manual. I use it as well but make changes to it and also have a transbrake based off of it.
The kit "shouldn't" be harsh. It can be very firm but it uses a vacuum modulator to control line pressure so unless you really set it on kill, it shouldn't be harsh.

You can convert back to automatic but it requires valve body replacement.

[69496]

Thanks for all the info guys. I honestly don't know what I would do with out these forums.

[KEISLER]

This is where the conversation gets tricky. Too many sources determine transmission torque capacity with a typewriter as an R&D tool.

"450 <backspace> 550 <backspace> 650 <backspace> 750. There, that sounds good."

Others are more honest, but their transmissions are only designed with WOT upshifts in mind.

Come on, Steve, that's a crap statement that only agitates people it targets - like me. I understand consultive sales and cut you some slack since you are from New York, but geez... you don't have to put down others to promote your product.

There is nothing wrong with putting packages into buckets of torque and cost. People need some starting point, and not a discertation, in order to get a budget established. Not trying to start a flame here, just get tired of seeing the little digs woven into the relevant material.

[KEISLER]

I am in the process of converting my chevelle from drag to pro-touring. I still want it to perform well on the drag strip as well as on the street and hopefully roadcourse. Like most of us the problem is money. I am trying to get into a 4l60 or 4l80 trans but after computer and everything the price gets steep. I saw a few places that sell full manual trans that does not use the computer. Would this be ok to start with as price is alot better and can I upgrade to a computer controlled or paddleshift later?

Here's a consideration for you:
- A-41 Stage 3 KIT, 650HP/650LBFT, 700LBFT fully built torque converter 7000rpm rated, dyno tested with transmission, mechanical and electronic speedo output. Kit includes pre-programmed computer, DualMode switch, TransView software, PnP wiring harness, TPS, isolator, aluminum auxillary oil cooler w/install kit, cooler lines, inspection cover, slip yoke, installation hardware $3995
LINK HERE
- Engine Braking in 1-2-3, free wheels in 4th as normal, $200
- Paddle Shifter with integrated multi-function display, wireless, powered from horn wire, $695

We have these kits as our PerfectFit kits complete with crossmember, new high speed/high torque driveshaft, OEM Shifter upgrade to 4-speed lens/detent plate/cable.

DualMode switch allows you to change between 2 program modes at the flip of a switch. We program the trans for Cruise Mode when switch off, and High Perf Mode when switch on, but it could be anything (hi-po/race, race 1/race2, etc).

TransView software has the setup wizards for your car's tire size diff ratio - all preset from us - plus the TPS sensor wizard to perfectly dial in your TPS calibration the first time so you don't damage the tranny. The software is full graphical interface, has an instrument cluster you can watch real time while tuning (shotgun or when stopped). The software has easy to understand graphs and data tables to allow you to move shift curves up or down - both upshift and downshift. You can also access Wide Open Throttle shift points if you want the TCU to shift off RPM only.

Data logging is standard, and we have added some really cool features to data logging, including Add Gaugemeter, Footpedal, that let you see what's going on graphically while you replay the datalog real time. You can really tune your trans down to the nats ass detail.

You can save as many calibrations as you'd like. Our software calibrations are progressive, and chances are you will only need to flip between the 2 calibrations.

[Steve Chryssos]

Come on, Steve, that's a crap statement that only agitates people it targets - like me. I understand consultive sales and cut you some slack since you are from New York, but geez... you don't have to put down others to promote your product.

There is nothing wrong with putting packages into buckets of torque and cost. People need some starting point, and not a discertation, in order to get a budget established. Not trying to start a flame here, just get tired of seeing the little digs woven into the relevant material.

It's an industry wide problem. There is no need for me to make insinuations towards any one source. Your response has called attention to your own business practices. One shop's 650 rating is another shop's 450 rating. Nothing wrong with packaging kits relative to torque capacity. It's a matter of disclosure. Automatic transmissions and torque converters are mysterious sealed boxes. Torque capacity ratings need to based on specific levels of internal modification -- parts and assembly practices. Same as with race engines. What rods? What crank? What head mods?

I will not, under any circumstances, apologize for encouraging my fellow club members to research claims of torque capacity from all sources. This is a message board--not a press release service. It's a virtual car club. A source for exchanging information and sharing projects. And, as a founding member, I was an enthusiast here long before I was a manufacturer.

[KEISLER]

It's an industry wide problem. There is no need for me to make insinuations towards any one source. Your response has called attention to your own business practices. One shop's 650 rating is another shop's 450 rating. Nothing wrong with packaging kits relative to torque capacity. It's a matter of disclosure. Automatic transmissions and torque converters are mysterious sealed boxes. Torque capacity ratings need to based on specific levels of internal modification -- parts and assembly practices. Same as with race engines. What rods? What crank? What head mods?

I will not, under any circumstances, apologize for encouraging my fellow club members to research claims of torque capacity from all sources. This is a message board--not a press release service. It's a virtual car club. A source for exchanging information and sharing projects. And, as a founding member, I was an enthusiast here long before I was a manufacturer.

I don't have any problem with my ratings. They have worked well for the many hundreds of units we have provided thus far.

However, you are drawing scrutiny to your credibility by asking for detailed bill of materials, when there is NOTHING you can do to evaluate it as reasonable or valid. Just like with any OEM, a unit has to be dyno tested, then field tested, to make a claim. We do that, and I would hope you do as well.

So, you can call it what you want, but at the end of the day the customer needs a square and honest answer. We deliver that every day, and that's one reason why we are a market leader and sell thousands of transmissions annually.

I respect the fact that you have been around the forum for a while, and that you have a style of promoting your business. That's cool. What I am saying is you should choose your words carefully when you choose to throw stones at others.

[Steve Chryssos]

Good. We've both made ourselves clear. I won't stop exposing the mysteries of manumatic technology and you can sell your transmissions in any way you might prefer. It's settled. The pro-touring.com member is smarter than your average enthusiast. I have implicit faith in their ability to make wise decisions.

Just relax. Hang out. Be a part of the club. People will buy your product without turning EVERY thread into a press release. You're a car guy right? Take your salesman hat off. Head on over to the Project Update section and tell us about your latest build.