candid wheel talk

[FirstGenZq8]

Joe, I've been watching this thread, and I think the thing you're missing is the cost to manufacture has very little to do with the selling price. The manufacturer takes many things into consideration in setting the price of an item, of which cost to manufature is only a small part. They must consider what their target market is willing to pay, and perceived value for what they are getting. Exclusivity counts a lot, especially in something like a high end set of wheels, just look at some of the fugly wheels people spend big bucks on. I wouldn't trade a set of steel rally's for them. Sure they could lower the price to where most anyone could afford them, but then they lose their target market, and their wheels would be as common as TT II's. If the price doesn't represent value, someone else comes along and says I could make a wheel similar to that for less than that and still make a good profit. Reminds me of when I was looking to buy a fireplace door. I went to look at some, the salesperson comes over and says "How much do you want to pay"? Thought that was a pretty stupid question, didn't much matter what I wanted to pay, tell me what they cost, and I can either afford them or I can't. How many things have you seen selling for $5-10 and said to yourself " Man, It must cost all of 5 cents to make that"? All this coming from a guy who is also looking for the best value in a new set of wheels. Jim.

something strange happened in late may that sparked this thread. i was in direct talks with one of the "little known forged wheel companies" from this thread https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=55600 and they were willing to drop their price significantly in order to make a sale to me. normally their 18" wheels are $800 a piece, but they were willing to go down to $675 a piece. a 15% cut in price. $2720 VS $3200 is significant to me. and this isn't a vendor wheelin' and dealin', but the manufacturer, DIRECT.

so this company can still profit by only charging $2720? it's like a game of limbo; how much lower could they go?

[Nine Ball]

work VS-XX


HRE 540R



YES! because APP supplies shells to 99% of the manufacturers. that means most 3 piece wheels are using the exact same shells. most even use the exact same hardware. so the price disparity then boils down to wheel design (complexity), lathe time, and overhead.

so the work VS-XX and the HRE 540R use the same exact shells. their faces are very similar. work doesn't offer their faces in any finishes other than "Burning Silver", "Extreme Gold", "2D Chrome" (sorta like an edelbrock "endurashine" from what i can tell), and "Gloss Black". HRE will give you their wheel faces in any finish you desire. same hardware used. gotta be very similar assembly times.

does this comparo work better? why are the HRE 540Rs priced much, MUCH more than the work VS-XXs? can't be just because of wheel finishes.

Work wheels have cast aluminum centers, not forged billet centers. It even says so on their website: http://www.workwheelsusa.com/product...ry=26&wheel=75

"WORK VS-XX. The classic mesh design that is leading the pack. WORK VS-XX is a true 3 piece modular wheel. Utilizes the latest low-pressure cast center disk and barrel forming technique to assure the strength and quality."

If you had both wheels side by side, the comparison in quality would be hugely evident. I'll try to show this by photos. Notice the soft, rounded edges on the face of the Work wheel. This is a limitation of cast aluminum, as sharp edges tend to chip off, and are also harder to design a cast for. Basically, these centers are liquified metal, poured into a mold, then the mold is removed to leave the center. No machine time at all, other than drilling lug holes and rivet holes.



On the HRE R series, the centers are made from a solid chunk of forged aluminum. Basically, a forged "blank". The spokes and designs are machined out by a multi-axis machine. Notice the sharper corners/edges on the face of the HRE wheel. Only machined Billet wheels will have this. The HRE wheels even get some additional detail machine work on the inside of the spokes, notice the concave grooves between the spokes? This is to lighten the wheel, and give them more detail attention.



Here are two pages to help explain the manufacturing process of a multi-piece forged wheel.

http://www.iforged.com/us/technology.php
http://www.minitruckinweb.com/tech/w...eel/index.html

Tony

[FirstGenZq8]

that's what i'm looking for. thank you tony.

so the difference between the two are the wheel faces, with the HRE wheel face being forged and having a lengthy amount of time on the lathe.

$2000 extra for this? $3000 extra for this?

[Vegas69]

HRE's are nice but you're paying for the name IMO. I'll take my Forgelines anyday of the week.

[Nine Ball]

that's what i'm looking for. thank you tony.

so the difference between the two are the wheel faces, with the HRE wheel face being forged and having a lengthy amount of time on the lathe.

$2000 extra for this? $3000 extra for this?

Comparing a bottom of the line multi-piece wheel to the top of the line, of course there will be a huge spread in pricing. HRE is also regarded as one of the most desirable name brands too. That comes with a price, just like anything else with a name brand. The higher price does keep them somewhat exclusive though, if that matters to someone. For example, the set of HRE's on my Z06 retail at around $9K for just the wheels. 19x10 fronts and 20x12.5 rears, custom paint-matched to my car. Pricey for sure, but I am less likely to see an identical car anytime soon. That is difficult to do with a bellybutton Corvette that seems to be on every corner here in Houston. lol

I carry several brands of wheels, with prices ranging from $1500 to $12,000 a set. Depends on what you want. All of my brands use forged centers, I don't like dealing in cheaply made wheels.

[camaro2nv]

something strange happened in late may that sparked this thread. i was in direct talks with one of the "little known forged wheel companies" from this thread https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=55600 and they were willing to drop their price significantly in order to make a sale to me. normally their 18" wheels are $800 a piece, but they were willing to go down to $675 a piece. a 15% cut in price. $2720 VS $3200 is significant to me. and this isn't a vendor wheelin' and dealin', but the manufacturer, DIRECT.

so this company can still profit by only charging $2720? it's like a game of limbo; how much lower could they go?

You would be shocked to see what discounts are being given to vendors from wheel companies. What you have to remember is, the vendor dosent always pass the saving on to you. But advice is to shop it!

[GetMore]

I just read through this thread today, and I agree with the idea.
Personally, I don't care about the name on the wheel, but I will pay extra for a better wheel. I would like a real comparison of the different wheels from different manufacturers, so I can choose the best wheel for my needs that I like the look of.

On the other hand, if all the top ($) manufacturers were to put all their information out there, and they each had wheels equal to the others, and the only difference was price and name who would spend the extra money?

If brands A, B, and C all make the same wheel I'll buy the cheapest one.
If brand C is made in China I won't buy it. (Well, to be honest, it'd have to be a lot cheaper and still made the same as A and B. My wallet doesn't always have the strength to support my convictions.)
If brand A has a stronger, lighter wheel then that is worth more to me.

It would be nice to be able to at least call up the company and say "I'm looking at you wheels along with those from Brand B and C. What makes your wheels worth the extra money."
Possibly the exact information would be the kind of thing that they don't want to get out. However I doubt there are any secrets about making wheels.

I wonder if we could start a list with technical details for those shopping wheels. Something along the lines of "Brand X, line Y comes with forged centers, titanium hardware and includes the center caps."
I know if would make things easier for me when it comes time to choose wheels. Just going by how they look on the screen and the price is NOT going to help me make the right choice.

[lnirenberg]

lnirenberg, i'm not a manufacturer or a vendor. i really hope one or the other answers your question so you don't only have my reply to go on.

i'm a bottom line kinda guy as well, as evidenced by this thread. the coy is of course the cost leader, you can pick those up for a song. centerline is sometimes a forgotten option IMO. excellent pricing for 2 piece welded forged wheels. billet specialties' street lite is the best value in a lightweight, 17" wheel currently available. PERIOD.

so, coys are cheap to buy but weigh a ton.

centerlines are middle ground, good low weight, and excellent price for true forged wheels.

billet specialties street lite are extremely low weight and their price is very attractive. IMO the only con is that they only come up to 17".

Billet Specialities
Street Lite 17
17x7 17 lbs
17x8 17.5 lbs
17x9.5 19.5 lbs
17x11 20.5 lbs

again, this is IMO, but not even the coys wheel will "fly to pieces" w/ crazy clutch dumps. they'd all be fine for drag duty. if you're going to fly 140+ MPH for extended periods i'd at least throw down for the centerlines.

i'd really like it if a manufacturer or vendor would weigh in for lnirenberg's sake.

This what I was getting at. Will -10lbs of unsprung weight per wheel make a big difference on a 2 ton car? I have no absolute way of knowing unless I can do objective testing but I am willing to assume it will so weight is definitely a factor. Are the finish of a forged wheels more durable than a cast--probably depends on the cast but clearly a forged wheel center should be harder than a cast, so once again another factor I considered. Also, nine ball's point about the sharper lines of a forged wheel definately was a factor. Personally, I was looking for a bit of old school look so a lot of the wheels that look great on 1st gen Camaros and vettes of various generations wouldn't work for me. In the end, I went with an American made forged wheel that I really liked from Billet Specialties at a great price point--kind of like having my cake and eating it to. Kudos to Jon Henson at Driverz Inc for the patience and help. Sorry for the crappy photo shop but it got me the general idea of what they would look like on the car. The actual tires will drop the car a couple more inches front and rear. Rally copy.jpg

[FirstGenZq8]

This what I was getting at. Will -10lbs of unsprung weight per wheel make a big difference on a 2 ton car? I have no absolute way of knowing unless I can do objective testing but I am willing to assume it will so weight is definitely a factor. Are the finish of a forged wheels more durable than a cast--probably depends on the cast but clearly a forged wheel center should be harder than a cast, so once again another factor I considered. Also, nine ball's point about the sharper lines of a forged wheel definately was a factor. Personally, I was looking for a bit of old school look so a lot of the wheels that look great on 1st gen Camaros and vettes of various generations wouldn't work for me. In the end, I went with an American made forged wheel that I really liked from Billet Specialties at a great price point--kind of like having my cake and eating it to. Kudos to Jon Henson at Driverz Inc for the patience and help. Sorry for the crappy photo shop but it got me the general idea of what they would look like on the car. The actual tires will drop the car a couple more inches front and rear. Rally copy.jpg

i think you made the best choice w/ the street lites. in all of my research, i can say w/ the utmost confidence that the street lite is the best value in a lightweight, 17" wheel out right now. can't get lighter for the dollar!

[Nine Ball]

I wonder if we could start a list with technical details for those shopping wheels. Something along the lines of "Brand X, line Y comes with forged centers, titanium hardware and includes the center caps."

Questions like this are meant for wheel dealers to help you with. Most of us that sell wheels will also gladly make suggestions based on your price range and vehicle. I feel I'm pretty good at picking the right wheel design for each type of vehicle, no complaints so far. Wheels can make or break your car, sometimes it is good to get opinions. The problem with your list idea is that each brand typically makes several lines of wheels. Some for performance, some for visuals only. The hardware, finishes, materials, etc... are typically options within each brand. It all depends on what you want, and what you can spend.

Are the finish of a forged wheels more durable than a cast

Both wheels are aluminum. Aluminum oxidizes in air, turns cloudy. If you hate polishing, I'd recommend either painted, powdercoated, or clearcoated centers. I'm not a big fan of chrome, other than on the lips. To me, chrome centers kind of make a wheel look cheap. I'd never recommend bare polished wheels for anything but a garage queen that never sees rain.

[JRouche]

Great thread...

Wheels, they make the car, for the most part (talking looks only now), that and paint.

So when looking for wheels I wanted to match a wheel that fit the style of my car (62 nova). And my car doesnt look good with a modern multi spoke wheel, I dont, IMO, think any old cars do. So I was limited there, then back spacing. I had critical back spacing needs. And most of all, money, Im not made of it, neither are my trees.

So what I saw for decent wheel styles that I liked were limited in BSing. Why well cause they were cast wheels. And I dont have any problem with cast wheels. But I couldnt get them in the correct BSing.

So I looked at billet specialties. They had a design I liked... Still some road blocks. I wanted an 11" wheel and with the soft lip I wanted they only come in even sizes. Like 8, 10 and 12 inches. I couldnt fit a 12" wheel and 8" was too small. So I had to settle for the 10" wheel just so I could have the smooth lip.

But whats really funny is I can get the same style rim in 11" but its the standard hoop, where the lip is in front of the center, not like the smooth hoop where the lip is behind the center. MAN!! I learned alot about wheels.

Here is an example.. All BS wheels, all the same design for the center. Three diff wheels. Pricing is a lil diff but not by much... But one is a cast center. I bought the billet machined center. So when I got the wheels and started thinking, hmmm, the pics look so close, how do I know I got the machined center and not the cast. Dummy me, I should know better to tell the diff, but my mind was racing and I wasnt thinking. Tooling marks on the back of the center. It was obviously a machined part. But the face looks so good, I mean I was thinking it was a cast center for a lil bit.... Anyway, and come down to it, I should have bought the cast wheel if I really wanted the 11" wheel cause IMO, its prolly just as good of a part.

To show the possibilities. Three wheels, same center design. Cast and milled. JR

The wheel I bought. SLC62 Smooth lip, milled center.
http://www.billetspecialties.com/ite...cid=21&pid=582

Same wheel but with a standard hoop, but also available in 11" but I wanted a smooth lip.
http://www.billetspecialties.com/ite...scid=1&pid=489

Then the same design but in a cast center but smooth hoop. Price break here.
http://www.billetspecialties.com/ite...id=257&pid=961

[FirstGenZq8]

am i reading this this article correctly?

http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/pres...ply-103971.php

so http://forgedrimsupply.com is now the sole distributer for ALL 2 piece T-6061 hoops? does this monopolization jack wheel prices higher, or was there another sole distributor before forged rim supply for 2 piece wheel hoops?

Forged 6061 Rims Available Now From Forged Rim Supply

CORONA, CA, June 12, 2009 /24-7PressRelease/ -- Forged Rim Supply has been granted the exclusive distribution for all forged 6061 seamless hoops/rims for welded two-piece wheels. Currently available in soft lip and conventional rim flanges, these rim shells are available in 15, 17, 18, 19, 20-inch diameters with 22-inch applications coming soon. With widths from 7 to 15 inches, these superior forged rim shells will meet nearly any high performance or custom need.

The seamless construction means no heat affected zone to reduce strength, durability or concentricity. Forged from 6000 series alloys, these rim shells will not work-harden with age, which is often seen in the lesser-quality 5000 series alloys used in most spun rim shells, virtually eliminating the issues of cracks or failure. Heat-treating these rim shells to T6 grade maximizes the strength and durability to the highest level.

The 6061 alloy polishes to a brilliant luster and will not give your billet wheels the "two-tone" effect of a duller 5000 series rim shell. In addition, 6061 alloys are more resistant to surface corrosion than 5000 series alloys. All the rim shells are forged, turned, spun, and final machined for perfect concentricity and maximum strength for their weight. The shells are TPMS compatible, and able to absorb the increased horsepower of today's hot rods and muscle cars effortlessly, while resisting impacts from pot-holes and road debris due to their higher ductility.

The strength, durability, and elegance of these forged rim shells are designed and manufactured using exhaustive testing and proprietary forging and heat-treating techniques. Exceeding JWL, DOT, and SAE standards, a Forged Rim Supply rim shell can withstand fatigue testing to maximum load with no loss of strength and with a total absence of any type of failure or deterioration making them your best choice for any quality two-piece wheel. "Forged for greater strength, these hoops are the lightest and strongest hoops available today and are unmatched in quality," exclaimed Dan Thibeau, Chief Operations Officer for Forged Rim Supply . Thibeau continued "we will be offering seamless 6061 forged billet hoops in diameter sizes from 15" -22" and 5"-15" widths because these sizes make up the total two-piece wheel market." All Forged Rim Supply hoops are one-piece forged, flow formed and spun seamless with a perfect look. They are also heat treated and tempered to T-6 for strength and durability and are the lightest and strongest two-piece rims available in the market today.

Source: Forged Rim Supply
Website: http://www.forgedrimsupply.com

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