candid wheel talk

[71CamaroSS]

Agree with gearheads78.......Also if Rushforth, HRE, Forgline exc. exc. were cheap i wouldn't have them.......becase everyone else would!

[buickfunnycar.com]

This tread is pointless IMO. We still are a capitalist country (for now anyway) If someone does not like the price don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it then the company goes out of business.

The best statement in the thread is the one about if you think you can do better then hop out there and start your own company. Check back with us after you price out a couple CNC machines.

I wouldn't say pointless,I found it to be an interesting read as I've always wondered too why certain wheels are priced where they are...but I will agree with your last point 100%,good luck trying to compete in this arena.

[FirstGenZq8]

enjoying those intros, richard? lulz.

This tread is pointless IMO. We still are a capitalist country (for now anyway) If someone does not like the price don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it then the company goes out of business.

actually my hope would be that the company stays in business, but adjusts their pricing to more accurate levels .

Agree with gearheads78.......Also if Rushforth, HRE, Forgline exc. exc. were cheap i wouldn't have them.......becase everyone else would!

i'm all about exclusivity! i have set a budget of $2500-$3000 for wheels, not including tires. it's sponsors like Boesch and DriverzInc that i'll more than likely buy my wheels from, because they have the stones to come in threads like these and answer tough questions. now if only i could get them to give me the weights of certain wheels, like CCW has on their website, they'd be at the top of my list.

to pay 3K for a set of wheels and not know their weight bothers me.

[buickfunnycar.com]

to pay 3K for a set of wheels and not know their weight bothers me.

totally understood...

[Damn True]

Don't understand the obfuscation and indignation in response to what seems a pretty legit question.

[DriverzInc]

One thing is for sure, use the manufacturers MSRP as your medium, not what dealers may be quoting you as a discounted price.

[gearheads78]

enjoying those intros, richard? lulz.

I assume that was an attempt at an insult???

Anyway yes I am. I bought the extact wheel I wanted after looking at 100s of wheels that fit my budget. They gave me the look I was after for my car. Are they 2 lbs lighter or 2 lbs heavier than another brand? Probably but I don't care. I not out racing with a convertible. I was building a cruizer that can turn a corner like a modern car and it does what I want it to.

Don't understand the obfuscation and indignation in response to what seems a pretty legit question.

I still say what does it matter. Maybe Centerline paid for thier building 30 years ago and have a lot less overhead.

The bottom line is a business is there to make a profit. I know thats a dirty word this day in age but it is what it is. If company's business model cost them a certain amount to produce a product they have to price it to keep the doors open. If they price it to high then the market votes by not purchasing the product.

There is so many variables that can be part of a business. The payrole, workers comp insurance, equipment, tranportation, building, property taxes ect all are different at different companies.

Sorry but this is a hot button with me. It almost sound like some of you are saying its unfair because you can not buy a one companies product for the price you can buy another companies product. The next thing you know people will want the government taking over busin.......... Ah never mind.

[parsonsj]

actually my hope would be that the company stays in business, but adjusts their pricing to more accurate levels

I may be reading this comment wrong, but it seems insincere. I get the vibe that what you are really doing is complaining about the high cost of 3 piece wheels. Your questions have been answered in several ways by several people, but you keep asking for more detail.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong...

jp

[Damn True]

I assume that was an attempt at an insult???

Anyway yes I am. I bought the extact wheel I wanted after looking at 100s of wheels that fit my budget. They gave me the look I was after for my car. Are they 2 lbs lighter or 2 lbs heavier than another brand? Probably but I don't care. I not out racing with a convertible. I was building a cruizer that can turn a corner like a modern car and it does what I want it to.



I still say what does it matter. Maybe Centerline paid for thier building 30 years ago and have a lot less overhead.

The bottom line is a business is there to make a profit. I know thats a dirty word this day in age but it is what it is. If company's business model cost them a certain amount to produce a product they have to price it to keep the doors open. If they price it to high then the market votes by not purchasing the product.

There is so many variables that can be part of a business. The payrole, workers comp insurance, equipment, tranportation, building, property taxes ect all are different at different companies.

Sorry but this is a hot button with me. It almost sound like some of you are saying its unfair because you can not buy a one companies product for the price you can buy another companies product. The next thing you know people will want the government taking over busin.......... Ah never mind.

You have totally and completely missed the point. Nobody is trying to deny a company profit. Least of all me. They want to understand where the value in one product is vs another. I don't mind paying more for one product over another, but the vendor better damn well make a case that proves to me that I am getting something better for my money with their product than I am for a less expensive alternative. "Exclusivity" IMO does not qualify as such.

If product "A" requires 6 additional machining steps, uses a material that is 10% more expensive, is lighter or stronger and is manufactured in Indiana instead of Chengdu, China then the vendor has made a very good case for charging more for a product.

If their only response is to get indignant with people who ask "why" or say "they are different" they have not made a case for producing a better product or providing more value. They've obfuscated and that makes them look shady.

[parsonsj]

I come at this whole deal from a different perspective, and I think others are on this wavelength too: if a wheel is too expensive for my budget, I can do one of two thing:
1. Readjust my budget. Figure out if I really really want that wheel, and if I can somehow find the delta cash needed.
2. Look for a wheel at a lower cost.

I don't think any vendor owes a cost breakdown to a consumer, just a normal marketing pitch: "My wheels are 10% lighter. Or I can set you up in 1/8" backspacing increments." Asking a vendor to provide cost breakdown numbers is asking for proprietary data, and I believe most vendors won't take that request seriously.

jp

[Damn True]

The conversation should go like this:

Customer: "Hey, I really like that new slappy-doo-dah wheel."
Vendor: "Thanks, we worked really hard on them."
Customer: "So how much are they for an 18x9.5?"
Vendor: "$1500 per."
Customer: "Gulp, that's more than I had in mind, and $x more than product X which is pretty similar."
Vendor: "Yeah, I understand that's a lot. But, there is value in that. They do "look" similar, but we use a material that is 10% stronger than product X and it's a bit lighter too. Plus, we can offer you more offset options and an extra year of warranty on materials and workmanship. So while you are spending more, you are getting more too."


I don't think that's too much to ask, and the vendor isn't giving away any trade secrets in making a case for more value.


I mean, if you asked Rockland Standard to list the upgrades over stock for their Tranzilla and they responded "Well, they are just different" or "it's complicated" or "well, you aren't going to see a transmission like this in every car on the road" and still asked you to pay the upcharge.....would you?

[parsonsj]

We agree. What I was calling the standard marketing pitch is exemplified by:

Vendor: "Yeah, I understand that's a lot. But, there is value in that. They do "look" similar, but we use a material that is 10% stronger than product X and it's a bit lighter too. Plus, we can offer you more offset options and an extra year of warranty on materials and workmanship. So while you are spending more, you are getting more too."

jp

[armourmark]

the pricing is reflected in "perceived value"

[FirstGenZq8]

I assume that was an attempt at an insult???

richard, i'm sorry if you read what i posted as an insult. i should have used a smiley. i'm not hating on the fact that you have intros; the fact of the matter is they are on my short list (4th place currently if you'd like to know).

The bottom line is a business is there to make a profit. I know thats a dirty word this day in age but it is what it is.

i'm all for making money. i'm just trying to ascertain if gouging exists in the wheels business just as much as it does in other businesses.

It almost sound like some of you are saying its unfair because you can not buy a one companies product for the price you can buy another companies product.

not at all. true said it better than i did; i mirror his thoughts pretty closely.

I may be reading this comment wrong, but it seems insincere. I get the vibe that what you are really doing is complaining about the high cost of 3 piece wheels.

kinda, but not really, because when it comes down to it i am going to get some expensive ass wheels fairly soon. if i have to pay 3K for them then i damn well better know the full story on my product.

Your questions have been answered in several ways by several people, but you keep asking for more detail.

again, kinda, but manufacturers and vendors are very careful in their answers and they seem to skirt them to some degree. notice that you say i keep asking for more detail (and not asking the same question twice)...you're right, i am asking for more detail. i'm trying to ascertain value. i started this "candid" thread to try and get some insights into wheel pricing, and those secrets look to be impossible to get since many answers are roundabout.

I come at this whole deal from a different perspective, and I think others are on this wavelength too

i see your point of view, i do. but just as many people are on my wavelength as well.

I don't think any vendor owes a cost breakdown to a consumer, just a normal marketing pitch: "My wheels are 10% lighter. Or I can set you up in 1/8" backspacing increments." Asking a vendor to provide cost breakdown numbers is asking for proprietary data, and I believe most vendors won't take that request seriously.

i agree to a point. an example:

i recently was researching electric water pumps for my LT1. the three that are used most heavily are a summit racing (knock off) brand, a CSR, and a meziere. prices are below:

SUM-314351 $179.95
CSR Performance 901LT1 $182.95
Meziere Enterprises WP118HD $269.95

the summit pump moves 30 gpm, the CSR 30-37, and the meziere 55 gpm. it is safe to assume, at these "low" costs ("low" is subjective), that the meziere costs more because it moves more gpm. but i also think it is safe to assume that they're charging more for their name. they've been in business longer and they have a reputation for excellent products, so you know when you pay a premium for it you're paying for it's ability to move more gpm and you're paying for the name on the pump.

now when it comes to $3K+ wheels, it gets harder to quantify one company's product VS another. things like MOI (keep MOI talk in its respective threads), weight (again, keep wheel weight talk in its respective threads), materials, lathe time, hand polish, hand assembly, and many other countless factors come into play.

does what i'm asking for verge on the edge of trade secrets? maybe. but i've got to know why brand x's wheels cost $200, $400, $1000, or $3000 more than brand y's. and it may boil down to "they just do", which i will eventually have to swallow and move on with, but up until the day i buy wheels i will continue asking the question.

[parsonsj]

does what i'm asking for verge on the edge of trade secrets? maybe. but i've got to know why brand x's wheels cost $200, $400, $1000, or $3000 more than brand y's. and it may boil down to "they just do", which i will eventually have to swallow and move on with, but up until the day i buy wheels i will continue asking the question.

Ask away then. Just don't get annoyed if vendors ignore you, and other members grow weary of it.

jp

[gearheads78]

richard, i'm sorry if you read what i posted as an insult. i should have used a smiley. i'm not hating on the fact that you have intros; the fact of the matter is they are on my short list (4th place currently if you'd like to know).

10-4 Apology accepted. Sometimes its hard to "hear" a person's tone through type. The rest we will just have to agree to disagree

[FirstGenZq8]

Ask away then. Just don't get annoyed if vendors ignore you, and other members grow weary of it.

i'm pretty sure if i haven't annoyed them in the past, this thread should put the final nail in my coffin .

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/se...archid=1172227

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/se...archid=1172237

as much as i start these kinds of threads for me i am honestly doing it for the benefit of all.

[oestek]

It's true that a manufacturer can charge whatever they want for their products.

[Vegas69]

It's pretty simple really. You need to lay your own eyes and hands on a set of Forgelines and you will understand why they are more than most.

[Nine Ball]

Since nobody else has said it, and it seems that a few would not bring up the subject for whatever reason....

SUPPLY vs DEMAND & NAME BRANDING

Those are also two key factors to determine pricing. Does higher pricing automatically mean higher quality? Hell no. There are some ghetto fabulous 1-piece Taiwan chrome junk wheels selling for as much as multi-piece forged wheels. Name brand drives those prices. Just like anything else, brand names DO matter to some people. Watches, cars, clothing, etc... Well, wheels also follow this pattern.

I carry a range of brands, but try to avoid cheaper cast wheels. I prefer to help people find custom wheels that match their car perfectly, and I don't like the cookie-cutter cheap cast wheels that most people settle for. To me, wheels and stance are THE most important aspects of a vehicle. Even more important than paint! Don't skimp on the wheels, they set the attitude of your car. I can make a primered rust bucket look kick ass with the right stance and wheels, but I can also ruin the look of a car with a $50,000 paint job just by choosing the wrong wheels. Wheels are more important than anything when it comes to visuals. I tell people to budget accordingly.

Tony