candid wheel talk

[FirstGenZq8]

all pricing based on FOUR 18" wheels. shipping not included.

example of $XXXX cast aluminum wheels: coys C5 pictured


example of $XXXX 2 piece billet forged wheels: centerline retro pictured


example of $XXXX 2 piece billet forged wheels: intro 5 star


example of $XXXX 2 piece billet forged wheels: budnik M5 pictured


example of $XXXX 2 piece billet forged wheels: rushforth fuel pictured


example of $XXXX 3 piece billet forged wheels: CCW classic pictured


example of $XXXX 3 piece billet forged wheels: fesler FS 904


these are just a few examples i cooked up.

why is there such a price disparity between the centerline retro and the upper echelon 2 piece rushforth fuel? they're both T-6061 2 piece welded wheels, correct? how can centerline and intro charge less?

how can CCW charge $XXXX for classics and no other 3 piece wheel company can touch that? wouldn't you want to try to get down to that price to drum up business? is business good enough as it is and you don't need to lower your prices?

i know that the price of 3 piece wheels can get lower, especially when i see messages on sponsors websites such as "Help contribute to our retirement, shop the [company name removed] Store".

constructive thoughts?

[Boesch]

One of the main factors contributing to the price differences is the style of rim hoop. Different rim hoops have different costs associated with them. Our Endless series are a lot cheaper than our other series because they use a stepped lip rim hoop rather than the smooth lip.

[2Bad4Ya]

One of the main factors contributing to the price differences is the style of rim hoop. Different rim hoops have different costs associated with them. Our Endless series are a lot cheaper than our other series because they use a stepped lip rim hoop rather than the smooth lip.

Interesting, I never thought on the lip rims being a cost factor. I guess seeing shops like Coys putting the smooth lip rims on their cast wheels makes you forget about the lip difference affecting cost.

[Boesch]

Interesting, I never thought on the lip rims being a cost factor. I guess seeing shops like Coys putting the smooth lip rims on their cast wheels makes you forget about the lip difference affecting cost.

You're assuming that all wheel hoops come from the same source and cost the same which is not true.

[Damn True]

So is the process of making one hoop vs another dramatically different? What accounts for the disparity?

[Boesch]

The country in which they are made has an affect on price and also on quality.

[DriverzInc]

There are so many contributing factors that we can probably hold a class on this subject.

First, you can remove that Coys wheel right away. If you don't know the difference between cast and billet wheels, you need to so some more homework. Coys are cast, one piece, and brought over by the boat load from China. The backspace, is pre-determined, and can only be changed by the manufacturer by milling down the pad and drilling the bolt patterns post casting, and upon their arrival here in the states.

Here are some other contributing factors:

One, like Boesch mentioned, outers will vary in cost based on size, soft lip, step lip, country of origin, cost of aluminum, and varying costs from the manufacturer of the outer.

Two, not all wheels are machine the same. Some wheels have more detail in their machining. Ball milling, lathe operations, lug nut detail, center cap detail, bore sizes, all equal a set amount of time in the mill. Mill time = $. Plain and simple.

Three, 3pc wheels (which I've explained before) take more inventory parts to produce. Manufacturers are having to inventory three piece rim shells in every width and diameter size, to make up the same with wheel, based on wheel offsets and rim widths ordered. 3pc hardware is also not cheap, and at 40 nuts and bolts per wheel, they add up quickly. Also, most three piece wheels are offered in standard finishes of chrome, or powder coat, which is an added operation and cost to manufacturing anything.

You should do a little more homework when comparing apples to apples here too.

Budnik M5: Retail: 573.75ea direct from Budnik: 2295/set.
Rushforth Fuel: 595.75ea direct from Rushforth: 2383/set.
Intro Pentia: 598.75ea direct from Intro: 2395/set.

These are more similar wheels than the examples above.

If you think you can do it cheaper, I again beg anyone to start your own wheel business and try. I can tell you first hand, its not all champagne and velvet robes.

[Damn True]

I don't think anyone is suggesting gouging. Just trying to understand what makes two apparently similar (to someone that doesn't know how wheels are made) wheels very dissimilar in price.

[FirstGenZq8]

thank you Boesch, that is something i didn't know.

There are so many contributing factors that we can probably hold a class on this subject.

exactly why i started this thread, to get answers to questions.

First, you can remove that Coys wheel right away. If you don't know the difference between cast and billet wheels, you need to so some more homework.

i've done my homework better than most. re-read post #1. i'll copy and paste for you.

example of $1000 cast aluminum wheels: coys C5 pictured

i know that coys are cast, one piece, chinese crap wheels that weigh a ton. i listed them for one reason: context.

One, like Boesch mentioned, outers will vary in cost based on size, soft lip, step lip, country of origin, cost of aluminum, and varying costs from the manufacturer of the outer.

understood.

Two, not all wheels are machine the same. Some wheels have more detail in their machining. Ball milling, lathe operations, lug nut detail, center cap detail, bore sizes, all equal a set amount of time in the mill. Mill time = $. Plain and simple.

understood.

Three, 3pc wheels (which I've explained before) take more inventory parts to produce. Manufacturers are having to inventory three piece rim shells in every width and diameter size, to make up the same with wheel, based on wheel offsets and rim widths ordered. 3pc hardware is also not cheap, and at 40 nuts and bolts per wheel, they add up quickly. Also, most three piece wheels are offered in standard finishes of chrome, or powder coat, which is an added operation and cost to manufacturing anything.

i know you've explained this before, and i appreciate both your first explaination and this current conversation we're having. i understand that stocking inventory of rim halves, hardware, silicone, etc. can be costly. how can CCW do it cheaper then? do they buy thousands of rim halves all at once? do they know something you don't?

You should do a little more homework when comparing apples to apples here too.

Budnik M5: Retail: 573.75ea direct from Budnik: 2295/set.
Rushforth Fuel: 595.75ea direct from Rushforth: 2383/set.
Intro Pentia: 598.75ea direct from Intro: 2395/set.

These are more similar wheels than the examples above.

no need for the condescending tone, jon. i have been doing my wheel homework for over 3 years. the prices in my first post reflect quotes i have gathered from vendors ON THIS WEBSITE. there's no way in hell i'd pay $2300 for budnik M5s when i can get them from a shop located in paradise for $2000.

If you think you can do it cheaper, I again beg anyone to start your own wheel business and try. I can tell you first hand, its not all champagne and velvet robes.

i've never liked this answer. to me it's a cop out. i couldn't start my own wheel company and make it cheaper. but other businesses out there ARE doing it cheaper, and all i'm trying to figure out...is how .

[lower90xcab]

great topic joe, im currently wheel in the buying market...i also believe its hard to understand the prices of wheels....

[Boesch]

i know you've explained this before, and i appreciate both your first explaination and this current conversation we're having. i understand that stocking inventory of rim halves, hardware, silicone, etc. can be costly. how can CCW do it cheaper then? do they buy thousands of rim halves all at once? do they know something you don't?

Note that only the CCW classic's are that price. If you go to one of the other styles the price goes up. The difference comes in for the increased cut times for more intricate designs. They also used a stepped lip in that series. Similar reasons why our Endless series are cheaper than our Exposed series.

[FirstGenZq8]

Note that only the CCW classic's are that price. If you go to one of the other styles the price goes up. The difference comes in for the increased cut times for more intricate designs. They also used a stepped lip in that series. Similar reasons why our Endless series are cheaper than our Exposed series.

but it seems to me that the face of the CCW classic would take longer to cut than say a five spoke. also, the stepped lip argument is a strange one to me when step lipped 18" forgelines cost $3350 HERE. assuming you can even get the pricing listed in that thread for 18" forgeline step lipped wheels, what makes them cost $950 more than the step lipped CCW classic? does the extra machining cost $950 more than the CCW classic?

forgeline S03 step lip pictured
$3350


VS

CCW classic step lip pictured
$2400


what about HRE's stepped lipped series seen HERE? i'll be honest and say that i don't know their cost, but i'm sure it's more than 3K.

it's been asked before, "where's my money going?"

[Boesch]

Our pricing is directly in line or better for a comparable wheel from CCW. If you take a look at the SP/Tapered series you'll be in a comparable wheel line.

I don't know why the CCW classic series are priced lower because I don't have access to one of them to take a look at it in person. Number of spokes doesn't indicate machine time. It's the small details and extra engineering that costs more. I'm also not aware which hoops are being used in that series. There's obviously a reason CCW charges more for one wheel series than another.

[Boesch]

Think of wheels similar to buying a new GMC truck. (I've been researching buying a new pickup, thus this works well for me) There's a bottom of the line GMC truck. It comes with the smallest motor, vinyl seats, crank up windows, etc. Then there's your midline with cloth seats, carpet, larger motor, power windows and locks. Then there's a higher end model that adds leather, navigation, even bigger motor, etc. An lastly there's a Denali model that's a bit over the top and has all the bells and whistles.

At the end of the day every single one of the above are GMC trucks. The low end model is probably about half the cost of the high end model. There's a reason. If GMC could sell the Denali model for the price of the low end model, every single one of us would be driving a Denali.

So now let's look at the Dodge, Ford, Chevrolet, GMC all together. Some of them start at a lower price, some of them go up to a higher price, but if you look at comparable vehicles from each of them, the price is pretty much about the same for comparable trucks. In my searching I've found that there's not one that is significantly cheaper than the others. It all comes down to how many bells and whistles you want and which style you like better.

[Steve1968LS2]

but it seems to me that the face of the CCW classic would take longer to cut than say a five spoke. also, the stepped lip argument is a strange one to me when step lipped 18" forgelines cost $3350 HERE. assuming you can even get the pricing listed in that thread for 18" forgeline step lipped wheels, what makes them cost $950 more than the step lipped CCW classic? does the extra machining cost $950 more than the CCW classic?

forgeline S03 step lip pictured
$3350


VS

CCW classic step lip pictured
$2400


what about HRE's stepped lipped series seen HERE? i'll be honest and say that i don't know their cost, but i'm sure it's more than 3K.

it's been asked before, "where's my money going?"

Sorry, I don't see the level of detail in the CCW wheel that I see in the forgeline. It's something that's hard to see in a picture but I've noticed in person.

Like with FIKSE.. the Forgelines have much nicer edge profiles than the CCW wheels. Not to bag on CCW, it's a great lower cost option, but I've always seen them as more of a race wheel than a "pretty" wheel.

Like I said, this is just my opinion for dealing with both wheels quite a bit.

[Steve1968LS2]

I don't know why the CCW classic series are priced lower because I don't have access to one of them to take a look at it in person. Number of spokes doesn't indicate machine time. It's the small details and extra engineering that costs more. I'm also not aware which hoops are being used in that series. There's obviously a reason CCW charges more for one wheel series than another.

Bingo.. there's a lot more machine time/design time in a Intro/Fikse/Forgeline than in a CCW wheel and time is money.

Yea, I would be interested in hoop design as well.. materials and how it's made (cast, spun, etc)

[Boesch]

So if you're talking three piece wheels, here's a list of things that can contribute to cost. I think this is the type of thing you're after:

Wheel profile - thicker spokes with more curves requires a thicker forging which is more raw material costs and then also more machining time to cut the windows.

Wheel finish - are powdercoating and other optional finishes included or do you have to pay extra. Some companies choose to charge extra for them while others just have one flat rate

Wheel width - some companies vary cost by width and others have more of a flat rate

Rim hoop construction and materials - what material is is made from and where is it manufactured

Wheel hardware - the bolts that hold the three piece together. What material are they made from, steel, titanium. What style head do the bolts have. What's the finish of the material, raw or polished.

Wheel machine time - how much finishing detail is put into the machining. Are there a lot of details where the spokes go to the hoop, around the windows, and near the center cap.

Machine time for center cap - how much machine time is invested to allow for the installation of the cap.

Polishing - How well is the polishing done. Are the sides of the spokes polished? What's the surface finish like on the side of the spokes. Aggressive machining can lead to reduced machine time but also a poor surface finish.

[FirstGenZq8]

not all wheels are machine the same. Some wheels have more detail in their machining. Ball milling, lathe operations, lug nut detail, center cap detail, bore sizes, all equal a set amount of time in the mill. Mill time = $. Plain and simple.

mill time = $$$. i get that. is mill/lathe time quantifiable? probably not. but $1000 or more? $2000 more? $6000 total for these wheels HERE? why?

instead of "where's my money going?" maybe the question should be "why do wheel companies charge so much for these things?". i'm starting to think the answer is "because people are willing to pay too much."

Bingo.. there's a lot more machine time/design time in a Intro/Fikse/Forgeline than in a CCW wheel and time is money.

a wheel is designed in CAD or a similar program. say it took someone 200 hours to design the CCW classic wheel face. it took someone 500 hours to design the forgeline S03 wheel face. i can see why price would increase in this instance. but it can't take much longer if any time longer for a lathe to cut out one wheel face VS another. so the price difference between 3 piece wheels still doesn't jive w/ me.

if i'm beating a dead horse and i need to just stop asking questions just let me know .

[gearheads78]

This tread is pointless IMO. We still are a capitalist country (for now anyway) If someone does not like the price don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it then the company goes out of business.

The best statement in the thread is the one about if you think you can do better then hop out there and start your own company. Check back with us after you price out a couple CNC machines.

[71CamaroSS]

Are you planning on writing a thesis about wheels?