E85 vs gasoline

[BlueBull]

I have in mind setting up two different setups (gas and E85) for my engine and switch between them depending on how I want to use the car. The engine is a 406 CSB with Brodix heads and a roller cam. Today I run a Holley 750 vac carburator but have in mind also to buy a E85 Holley.

To the question, is the swap just as easy as replace one carb with the other and fill up the car with alcy or is there more things to take care of? I also have a standard mechanical pump, will it be sufficient or is an electric pump a must??

Anybody doing this today?

The reason I want be able swap is because of the excessive fuel consumption with E85. On long distance tours I want be able run the car on gas.

Thanks. /Emanuel

[MonzaRacer]

Well in all actuality the E85 needs cooler plugs, any rubber in fuel system will need to be upgraded to fuel injection rubber lines, you also need to remember tuning for e85 requires tuning with 100% E85 and tuning with E10(pump gas ) needs 100% gas.
If you mix it your tune will be off. for this I am working on a flex fuel FI kit that uses a fuel sensor. Some other companies are selling some version of this idea.
With E85 you will see about 20% (average) decrease in economy maybe more /maybe less.
And also depends on your driving practices, a friend runs a version of my flex FI on 69 Camaro 302, 11.5 to 1 with AFR heads and using a Race Pumps mechanical pump! Sensor is from Ford and uses Megasquirt II and has ran about 19k miles.

[BlueBull]

Not as simple as I thought (never is )

Thanks for good input.

[MonzaRacer]

Nothing good or kewl is.

[eldogg]

E-85 is great for forced induction or high compression. I like to think of it as cheap race fuel. If your stuff will run on pump gas your better off just to use it, but if you need race fuel and E-85 is available in your area it works very well. We are currently doing some E-85 blow-through carb testing for Barry Grant. The more I use it, the more I like it.

[MonzaRacer]

E85 pump gas race fuel for puimpgas price gotta love it and if you run out run gas it just runs real rich, got one guy who tuned e85 holley then retuned a set of metering blocks for gas and even with wrong air bleeds and such it doesnt run bad but he hates gasoline now. Neat trick to get home.

[inSANe DIEGO]

To expand on what's been said. E85 LOVES/wants high compression. It offers far worse economy at the lower compression levels needed for pump gas. So, unless you're boosting, E85 won't be any of any advantage. Unless you just feel like tinkering. Check out www.e85forum.com for more info on the fuel. I read an article on there that stated 12:1 - 14:1 compression was the sweetspot. Any lower and it runs like a gas car tuned pig rich... it'll run, but not like anyone with an appreciation for a good tune would like it to.

[Josh69]

I'm running E85 and I'm still on the fence about it. I have shaved heads and am around 11:5-12:1. I would like to go higher comp to take advantage of it. I'm still in the tuning phase, and am going to start datalogging a wideband O2. It's a necessity with E85. Also, as was pointed out, you need to tune on true E85 (85%alcohol). You will find that what you get out of the pump, is rarely that. It can range from E70 to E85. They change the formulation in the spring, fall and winter. Who knows where it's at on any given Sunday. Buy a tester. You'll be rich at the lower levels, but safe at least.

As for what you need, the carb is the main thing. I have a regular brand new gas tank, did stainless lines just to be safe, and alky resistant hoses where I could. In reality, most fuel line today is made to handle E10, and most backyard tests haven't shown any real degradation. I am running a RobbMC mechanical pump, so we'll see how it goes. A rebuild is cheap, and it'll support my 475hp without the hassle of an electric pump on the street.

Definitely go to E85forum.com. I had Mark (DragChevelle) rework my Quickfuel carb fully for E85. I had bought one from E85carbs.com, but it was a glorified gasoline carb and I got screwed. Mark did all of the R&D on the Barry Grant E85 carbs, so he knows his stuff and can truly customize it to your specific combo.

So the short answer is, yes, you can just switch your carb. Will the rest of your system survive long term? It's anyones guess...but E85 is way less corrosive than methanol, which seems to be the comparison used. You won't be optimizing it with low a low scr, but it'll work. I guess if you aren't boosting or have a high scr like me, you don't really benefit from it. If you are on the borderline with your fuel system supporting the power you have, I would upgrade it. You'll need 20-30% more volume.

[Bryce]

E85 requires 50% more fuel flow as well.

It has the possibilities of more horsepower but you need to also increase the compression.

[DJW32]

E85 requires 50% more fuel flow as well.

It has the possibilities of more horsepower but you need to also increase the compression.

E85 does NOT require 50% more fuel. Usually E85 requires about 25-30% more fuel.

David

[Bryce]

you are right E100 would require 50% more fuel.

[MonzaRacer]

Wrong E100 rarely requires over 30% more, atleast in the dozen or so I have tuned.
AS for E85 running rich on lower compression THATS BU-----T and have tuned many to run just fine on it. Dont get me wrong the 7.8 to 1 engine is going to be a dog but I have customer with 8.3 to one and runs E85 just fine, went from 28 to 22-23 in local cruising, he can actually get around 25 on long cruise and it run pretty good at local dragstrip.
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[Tech @ BG]

I'm running E85 and I'm still on the fence about it. I have shaved heads and am around 11:5-12:1. I would like to go higher comp to take advantage of it. I'm still in the tuning phase, and am going to start datalogging a wideband O2. It's a necessity with E85. Also, as was pointed out, you need to tune on true E85 (85%alcohol). You will find that what you get out of the pump, is rarely that. It can range from E70 to E85. They change the formulation in the spring, fall and winter. Who knows where it's at on any given Sunday. Buy a tester. You'll be rich at the lower levels, but safe at least.

As for what you need, the carb is the main thing. I have a regular brand new gas tank, did stainless lines just to be safe, and alky resistant hoses where I could. In reality, most fuel line today is made to handle E10, and most backyard tests haven't shown any real degradation. I am running a RobbMC mechanical pump, so we'll see how it goes. A rebuild is cheap, and it'll support my 475hp without the hassle of an electric pump on the street.

Definitely go to E85forum.com. I had Mark (DragChevelle) rework my Quickfuel carb fully for E85. I had bought one from E85carbs.com, but it was a glorified gasoline carb and I got screwed. Mark did all of the R&D on the Barry Grant E85 carbs, so he knows his stuff and can truly customize it to your specific combo.

So the short answer is, yes, you can just switch your carb. Will the rest of your system survive long term? It's anyones guess...but E85 is way less corrosive than methanol, which seems to be the comparison used. You won't be optimizing it with low a low scr, but it'll work. I guess if you aren't boosting or have a high scr like me, you don't really benefit from it. If you are on the borderline with your fuel system supporting the power you have, I would upgrade it. You'll need 20-30% more volume.

For the record... Mark did not do all of the testing on our E85 carbs and infact only had one size to test. The calibration that we ended up deciding upon was the one that we had worked out here in house first and was sent to him to test.

As eldogg mentioned we are doing some blow-through E85 testing with them guys based on another one of our calibrations and hopefully will have part numbers and offerings for those.

Plans were made some time back as well to offer complete carbs and conversion kits for the Race Demon and King Demon line but we just haven't had the time to complete that project either.No plans on kits for the Mighty Demons because the boosters have to be changed and they are swedged in but we have discussed offering doing the conversion here as well.

[shmoov69]

So, are you looking for any more "test" cars for blowthru?! LOL!
I have an 11:1 engine that would be too much to boost with conventional gas. Or just the engine that is built for boost with 8.5:1.
I have been thinking about this for awhile. But there only like 3 or 4 stations around here that have it.

[Tech @ BG]

So, are you looking for any more "test" cars for blowthru?! LOL!
I have an 11:1 engine that would be too much to boost with conventional gas. Or just the engine that is built for boost with 8.5:1.
I have been thinking about this for awhile. But there only like 3 or 4 stations around here that have it.

Yeah thats kind of the problem we have here is that right now it is real limited to where it can be bought and one of the stations closed a few months back.

[shmoov69]

Let us know what the outcome is when you get it ironed out!

[MonzaRacer]

E85 ETHANOL MYTHS

1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.

We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.

8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.

This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.

9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.

There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.

10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.

There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.



11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.

It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.

12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?

No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.

13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.

The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.

14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.